Part 2: Female swimmers beaten by transgender athlete stage podium protest at ‘unfair’ result (

[pombear]

Hope you don't mind whytcvv just posting here as your thread reached the limit for posts

Posting your original OP here:- Ignore my previous thread-start as it didn't include important title"

whytcvv
When will the rules change as I completely agree this is unfair and I expect that you will all largely agree with me.

For anyone that doesn't agree, please explain your reasoning to help me better understand.

This reminds me of the weightlifting story from last year.

People that are born female and people who are born male should not be competing in these events together. Our physical bodies are not comparable.

Have as many genders as you can think of, but there are only two possible sexes that you can be born as and that is what eligibility in these competitions should be based on.

AIBU

Link to previous thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4508526-female-swimmers-beaten-by-transgender-athlete-stage-podium-protest-at-unfair-result

Anyway, I don’t wish to derail the conversation. However it is important to point out on these threads that although the physical disparity in sports makes the problem glaringly obvious, there are problems everywhere with this. This rot is everywhere. Morally bankrupt and harmful to everyone in society on every level.

What kind of ‘progressive’ society are we living in that women and men live in fear of being fired for voicing ACTUAL FACT and BIOLOGICAL TRUTH??

Orwellian is the only word

Except the forum is getting overrun again, and I'm sick of seeing the same old boring threads with the same people banging the same drum. There's a reason you were put into a hidden sub forum

Ive no idea who said this but the reason we were put in a sub forum (its not hidden for goodness sake) is because there seem to be a number of posters who are unable to scroll past threads they dont want to read

I don’t know if its also a bit of a ‘too much choice’ issue where there are so many different threads and boards that they get confused, maybe they struggle with the concept that not everything revolves round them or maybe an issue with their hands…my mum, joking aside, would have really struggled to access anything requiring a graceful flick of the finger

Or maybe they really do just want to shut women up

[quote Nnique]@DrSbaitso you might not be bothered. As it happens I’m not personally bothered either. But the vast, vast majority of women are. And even if it were only a the ‘small’ (HA!) number that have been raped, assaulted and subject to male violence who objected, they have the right to privacy dignity and safety. That safety is not ours to give away.[/quote]
To add to this, there are many women who cannot share toilets with men for religious or cultural reasons. They matter too!

Very good points, Nnique.

@DrSbaitso

Can one of you people who is trying to claim that we are all bigots who hate trans people and want to ban them please answer this?

You know there are only two sexes. You know fine well how to tell one from the other and you know fine well what the male athletic advantage is. You know it and we know you know it, and you know we know you know it. And you know trans people are welcome to compete in their correct sex class.

So...why?

What exactly are you trying to achieve with this mass lie that you know is a lie?

Do you think it's the next step in LGBT rights and it makes you progressive? But how do you square that with trampling over women's equal opportunities?

You know you're talking nonsense and that we are right and that Lia et al do not belong there. You know an identity isn't a sexed body. So what are you trying to do?

Excellent post and point.

I've always said you cannot decrease the rights of one group to improve the rights of another.

Trans men and woman have every right to believe gender is something more than a social construct (it isn't but it's no different to people believing in different religions for example)

We've had wars and conflicts and terrorise because some religious groups believe their right to believe something and have social rules trumps other groups.

Where are we heading with this? If someone can absolutely change the whole basis of sex categories in swimming because of the personal belief they have about themselves for every single woman in sport are we starting a slippery slope of allowing these minority cult groups to become the strongest force on earth? Especially if no one is allowed to discuss it publicly unless for support?

I find it ironic that right now the world is punishing Putins Russia for running a country in such a way that freedom has speech has been demolished and yet the apparent free western world who are apparently against this are running the same process with regards woman's rights.

LT can swim and compete. Not an issue. But LT needs to compete against people who share the same sex category like every other swimmer has to.

I can't believe those at the top cannot see through how easy it is for any sportsperson to just self ID as anything they want, reduce testosterone and win Olympic medals. They are ripping the piss out of the system and they know it.

What we actually really need now is people like Micheal Phelps and other ex amazing swimmers over most events to be willing to reduce their own testosterone, compete against LT and then hand their medals to the real woman who won that race after them. I wonder if the only way to make LT see what they are doing is to do the same to them.

Will they want to continue once they realise the medals and records won't actually be easy or possibly even possible?

Ofallthegin what sport did you do? My son is a para swimmer!

"Except the forum is getting overrun again, and I'm sick of seeing the same old boring threads with the same people banging the same drum. There's a reason you were put into a hidden sub forum."

I don't understand how any poster on MN can NOT be bothered by these issues.

@TheKeatingFive

What kind of ‘progressive’ society are we living in that women and men live in fear of being fired for voicing ACTUAL FACT and BIOLOGICAL TRUTH??

Orwellian is the only word

Currently there is a case ongoing in the employment tribunal - Forstater vs CGD - which is being fought on that basis, more or less. Maya is saying she was discriminated against for saying transwomen are not biological women. I've been following the tribunal. The defence's primary rebuttal is that other people in the office found the statement "there are only two sexes" too offensive to be able to carry on working with her!

So now we know that we pretty much all agree, how do we get politicians and workplaces to stop gaslighting us all?

The sheer force that debate is shut down around this is beyond disturbing. How did we get here?

Oh and the person who said about the usual suspects being here. I don’t think the few vocal bullies trying to silence us realise quite how many of us are quite clear that trans women are biologically male and so are not women. They are trans women and that’s just fine. Let them have their own rights and their own spaces and their own options to make support groups together but they can take their penises and stay the fuck out of female spaces and sports.

"The sheer force that debate is shut down around this is beyond disturbing. How did we get here?"

Misogyny and its handmaidens.

I actually think this is a good thing. The outcry over social media is reassuring. Mainstream media maybe trying to paint this as a positive but the majority are supportive of women and women's rights.

@Oblomov22

"Except the forum is getting overrun again, and I'm sick of seeing the same old boring threads with the same people banging the same drum. There's a reason you were put into a hidden sub forum."

I don't understand how any poster on MN can NOT be bothered by these issues.

Agreed, I’ve not commented about this before and the thread about Bleeders tipped me over the edge.

I cried. :(

Now I’m angry, I knew about LT, and LH and I’ve seen the pieces in the press about women being arrested/convicted of flashing their penises, raping etc and I’ve snapped.

This is the biggest ever threat to women, we’ve fought so long and so hard just to allow ourselves to believe that we have equal rights and are considered worthy in society, people have died for the rights we apparently are going to have to give up so someone who wants to choose a different way of living at the expense of our privacy, our dignity and our safety

We do need to get fucking angry. Our husbands and sons need to get fucking angry.

The saddest thing about the Bleeders site was it absolutely laid bare just how little we matter. We literally don’t matter and nobody gives a shit.

Stay angry.

Anger is POWER.

I’m not frightened. I’m not defeated. I won’t ever be cowed.

My head might be bloody from time to time but I absolutely, 100% will remain unbowed.

There is strength in truth, there is strength in knowing you are on the side of right and justice.

I want to know why so many women are complicit in this?

I don't mean the people who are scared to speak, I can completely understand that. I mean the ones that are actively pushing this, that shout and scream transphobe, that back up the worst of the TRAs, why do they do it and what do they get out of it?

All I can think of is the meme that I see on Twitter which basically says "If I shit on other women with you, then will you treat me like I have value?"

Can someone link to the thread about Bleeders?

My DS looks much younger than he is, and is quite small. He is currently in the U18 category for both his sports but could easily pass for U14 if he tried I reckon. And he would absolutely smash the opposition if he did. He would rocket up the national rankings overnight.
He wouldn't do so of course course and if he tried and got caught I imagine he would be banned from the sports and his coaches would be sanctioned too. Because that would be cheating. You need to be U14 to compete as an U14 and saying "but I feel like I'm 13, not 16" wouldn't get him anywhere. That would be blindingly obvious to everyone.
So what's the difference?

You need to be U14 to compete as an U14 and saying "but I feel like I'm 13, not 16" wouldn't get him anywhere.

I don't understand why this doesn't apply to anything bar gender.

If I tried to say that I 'felt' African American/blind/a giraffe and that identity should be honoured by others, I'd be laughed out of the park.

Why is this different?

@itsgettingweird I was a para rower, currently playing wheelchair tennis, swimming is brutal your son has my respect!

@TheKeatingFive

You need to be U14 to compete as an U14 and saying "but I feel like I'm 13, not 16" wouldn't get him anywhere.

I don't understand why this doesn't apply to anything bar gender.

If I tried to say that I 'felt' African American/blind/a giraffe and that identity should be honoured by others, I'd be laughed out of the park.

Why is this different?

Because Penis.

@turbonerd

Can someone link to the thread about Bleeders?

I don't know if it's this one but it uses the term.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4505835-Most-bleeders-know-how-they-are-impacted-by-their-period

By which I mean something specific, but this probably isn’t the thread for it. I think there’s been a fair bit of discussion on it in the ‘naughty corner’ though.

@CaveMum

I’ll be honest, I’ve long thought that sport will be the straw that breaks the camels back.

As awful as it is, men in women’s prisons is too abstract a concept for many people to grasp/care about. Toilets/changing rooms are greeted with a shrug and “live and let live”, but put it into the spotlight of sport, which many people not entrenched in the Gender Wars care deeply about, and suddenly they can’t unsee it.

Agreed - it's also much easier to argue because it's factual and unemotional to point out that men are stronger/faster than women, and can't be countered with some variant of, "Oh, so you think all transwomen are rapists, do you?"

I want to know why so many women are complicit in this?

I don't mean the people who are scared to speak, I can completely understand that. I mean the ones that are actively pushing this, that shout and scream transphobe, that back up the worst of the TRAs, why do they do it and what do they get out of it?

All I can think of is the meme that I see on Twitter which basically says "If I shit on other women with you, then will you treat me like I have value?"

I think you have answered your question! There have always been women who sold other women out for the benefit of men. It's a patriarchal coping strategy to an extent. Ally yourself to the people with power.

I wonder how quickly she will change back into a man after college when she realises that as a woman she will be paid less than the men.