AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question - Thread 2

[Thewithesarehere]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:
“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

What's the point ?

Why would I engage with a transphobic who isn't going to change their mind? What a waste of time.

Do you understand the meaning of the word bigot?

Anyway, if you believe it makes me a transphobic because I believe that sex exists and matters, that women should have the right to space away from men and that men should grow up and accept other men that don't conform to their bullshit standards of masculinity then you are of course within your rights to refuse to engage with me.

Just be aware that doing so whilst calling us bigoted is pretty contradictory.

I'm perfectly happy to engage with you. I would love to be proved wrong!

But you don’t have facts. You have name-calling, and statements of belief that don’t stand up to any critical scrutiny whatsoever. At every turn there is evidence - actual studies, statistics, research - demonstrating that this ideology’s mantras are a crock of shit.

Gaslighting, arrogance, unsupported quasi-religious mantras, and insults are all TRAs have.

@Whatsnewpussyhat

Because instead of males being told to just be men and label themselves as they are told, we have to not be not only transphobic but also trans deniers. Fixed it for you

Telling females that being a woman is nothing more than a 'feeling' that men can somehow experience is pure misogyny.

And telling men they can't feel like women is....?

The world ... ie misogynists?

Interesting that you see the whole world as overwhelming misogynistic

Rooty you aren't being very clear with the point you are making.

Could you clarify your answer to the question

"do you think that an adult male with a penis should have the right to undress beside a teenage girl, or any woman, in a women's communal changing room?'

Also, I have a couple of further questions for you:

What is a woman?
What is a transwoman?
At what point does a male who identifies as a woman go from man to woman? What are the criteria for that.

I always feel like these are the fundamental questions that need to be answered before any sort of meaningful discussion can take place.

It is wide eyed though.

But why can't we have our opinion on social media?

I'm going to take that as a yes

Trans people exists. Transphobia exists, in its own right too, without analogies of race, sexuality and disability.

What women are discussing on this thread is a particular type of trans activism, which definitely does not represent all trans people but definitely does have all the exposure currently. We are critiquing an idea, not your best mate who is a transwoman and wouldn't hurt a fly. This type of trans activism demands that everyone pretend it is possible for humans to change sex and that safeguarding principles are ignored if the individual concerned says they are trans. If objecting to this is transphobia then transphobia can no longer be added to the list of prejudices because this type of trans activism has sexism and homophobia at its very core. There are many trans people on twitter who are vociferously against this. I just wish the BBC and Guardian were at all interested in them.

And telling men they can't feel like women is....?

Pretty reasonable.

And telling men they can't feel like women is....?

They can feel however they want. I don't understand it, because I don't feel like a woman and I don't get how men can feel it more than me but of course they are entitled to feel however they want.

But it doesn't mean they are women, IMO. Again, I'd love to understand why you think I'm wrong.

And telling men they can't feel like women is....?

How can a man 'know' he is a woman? What exactly is he basing that knowledge on?

@DickKerrLadies

What's the point ?

Why would I engage with a transphobic who isn't going to change their mind? What a waste of time.

Do you understand the meaning of the word bigot?

Anyway, if you believe it makes me a transphobic because I believe that sex exists and matters, that women should have the right to space away from men and that men should grow up and accept other men that don't conform to their bullshit standards of masculinity then you are of course within your rights to refuse to engage with me.

Just be aware that doing so whilst calling us bigoted is pretty contradictory.

I'm perfectly happy to engage with you. I would love to be proved wrong!

See that last sentence - thats what I mean about the faux confusion.

I couldn't care less if you think I'm contradictory. Don't worry about me though, the we women will stick together is strong on this thread.

Oh except women who don't agree with us.

See the problem @RootyT00t is you came here to name call. Not sure why you did that, because, as I say Mumsnet is usually inhabited by mums - and other people, who generally support mums. Wondering what encouraged you to mosey on over here and critique us all for our wide eyedness? The point is, you could read the concerns and discuss them properly. Instead you snipe and point and then walk away.

[quote RootyT00t]@Biscuitsanddoombar

You don't see why feminists (not just feminists but that is who you are talking about) who by their nature want to support women's choices , want to accommodate women undergoing a sex change.

Righto.[/quote]
If they are women why are they undergoing a sex change?

You don't see why feminists (not just feminists but that is who you are talking about) who by their nature want to support women's choices , want to accommodate women undergoing a sex change.

I gather then Rooty was talking only about male 'women'. As usual, transmen are not included.

I especially liked this. Every racist or homophobe ever would always have lots of evidence why they're not. Doesn't change the facts.. It is wonderful to see that any evidence that we ask for, the request is rejected out of hand. Yet, the evidence that we might provide can be viewed as 'racist and homophobic' (you do like throwing those terms around).

And then you state something about facts. At what point exactly, is it a fact (not a legal fiction) that a male can become a female to be able to access the rights and provisions set aside for females?

Another fact is that transmen and transwomen certainly need their own rights.

However, these rights should not negatively impact women's rights.

Why are you labelling and insulting me as being transphobic

Where did you get that from ?

@Jetatyeovilaerodrome

And telling men they can't feel like women is....?

How can a man 'know' he is a woman? What exactly is he basing that knowledge on?

His own feelings rather than Barbara from Kent telling him how he should feel? Imagine.

Are you really trying to pretend that transgender doesn't exist? What an utterly bizarre post.

Stop assuming everyone here is woman

I would like to know what your definition of woman is first

@littlbrowndog

Why are you labelling and insulting me as being transphobic

Where did you get that from ?

I've had such a pile on I've no idea. Quote me and I'll look.

@midgedude

Stop assuming everyone here is woman

I would like to know what your definition of woman is first

I'm referring directly to the posters who are writing about women will not be silenced , bla bla bla.

@RootyT00t, you are not helping the debate here. I am assuming that your accusations of transphobia apply to anyone who thinks and states that it is not possible for people to change sex. This is a huge barrier to moving this forward. You tell me that I have to believe in something I think, and the evidence shows, is fundamentally untrue, otherwise I am a bigot, and my opinions automatically don't matter. I object to that in the strongest terms. I feel bullied. And disregarded. And disempowered. And the people wanting access to my space don't give a shit, because their feelings matter more apparently. This is no way to build trust and win allies.

At but from their perspective I have happy to be called woman as I know what they mean

Not sure about you however

@Winesalot

You don't see why feminists (not just feminists but that is who you are talking about) who by their nature want to support women's choices , want to accommodate women undergoing a sex change.

I gather then Rooty was talking only about male 'women'. As usual, transmen are not included.

I especially liked this. Every racist or homophobe ever would always have lots of evidence why they're not. Doesn't change the facts.. It is wonderful to see that any evidence that we ask for, the request is rejected out of hand. Yet, the evidence that we might provide can be viewed as 'racist and homophobic' (you do like throwing those terms around).

And then you state something about facts. At what point exactly, is it a fact (not a legal fiction) that a male can become a female to be able to access the rights and provisions set aside for females?

Another fact is that transmen and transwomen certainly need their own rights.

However, these rights should not negatively impact women's rights.

Sorry, I was going to respond to the first ridiculous post but literally spluttered on the bit about men becoming women to access your toilets

Do you genuinely believe that's why men transition?

You must really think you are all something special.

His own feelings rather than Barbara from Kent telling him how he should feel? Imagine.

And you think you sound progressive I love the smell of misogyny in the morning. I think Barbara from Kent or anywhere else, as a woman with first hand experience, is perfectly entitled to a different view on what a woman is from a male with second hand experience.

But it strikes me by your repeated use of male pronouns that you don't actually buy into this ideology much yourself. I'm not sure why you imagine we should.

@midgedude

At but from their perspective I have happy to be called woman as I know what they mean

Not sure about you however

Ah.

I see.

Not sure what that has to do with anything, as I wasn't referring to you.

I can’t quote you as you were quoting me

It’s the last post on page 22