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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question - Thread 2

999 replies

Thewithesarehere · 27/01/2021 21:30

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:
“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU. Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
26
Thewithesarehere · 29/01/2021 21:11

so what do straight men see in women that gay women don't?

What has this got to do with anything? With female spaces? Confused

OP posts:
BarbaraofKent · 29/01/2021 21:11

In the same way if I need help I don't know who is a genuinely kind lady and who might take advantage of me (Women do go out and set traps for thie r murdering partner you know, it happens. Have you researched how Ian Watkins got access to all of the children he abused) Now the obvious response is BUT THATS NOT ALL WOMEN. No it isn't. It's a minority. It's also a minority of people who actively access showers to look at women (but this is a none argument as I've already said certainly where I'm from, most showers are perfectly visible from the pool and mixed). So what's the answer there? Separate pools for men women and trans?

Sorry but the statistics just do not back up what you are saying at all. 98% of sexual offences are perpetrated by males, that's huge.

Its a huge part of the reason that we have single sex facilities in certain situations. Single sex toilets, changing rooms, refuges, hospital wards. Its why even the nice men can't come into female spaces. No one has a problem with single sex spaces when men identify as men, so objectively, what actually changes when a man feels like a woman on the inside?

Further, women are always told to take steps, to curtail their behaviour to 'keep themselves safe'. Don't get too drunk, don't wear revealing clothing, don't walk down dark alleys at night alone, don't get in taxis alone, there are perverts and dangerous men everywhere etc. And everyone knows we are talking about protecting women from men in these situations.

But as soon as women make suggestions of things that will help to keep them safe, but may mean some males not getting do what they want, then all of a sudden we are paranoid, unkind, women do it too you know blah blah blah.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/01/2021 21:11

There are so many facets of why this ideology is totally misogynistic. This complete disregard for female rights and feelings when they want privacy and dignity away from the male gaze is one of the most glaringly obvious.

RootyT00t · 29/01/2021 21:11

@Thewithesarehere

so what do straight men see in women that gay women don't?

What has this got to do with anything? With female spaces? Confused

Why do women not want to get changed in front of men?
Thewithesarehere · 29/01/2021 21:11

I will start another thread when this one fills up.

OP posts:
DialSquare · 29/01/2021 21:11

so what do straight men see in women that gay women don't?

Some of men see us as prey. We just don't know which ones.

I'd fancy my chances with any women who would try to attack me.

RootyT00t · 29/01/2021 21:12

@Ereshkigalangcleg

There are so many facets of why this ideology is totally misogynistic. This complete disregard for female rights and feelings when they want privacy and dignity away from the male gaze is one of the most glaringly obvious.
It's not misognyistic in the slightest.

The weights are heavily stacked against transwomen here.

RootyT00t · 29/01/2021 21:12

@DialSquare

so what do straight men see in women that gay women don't?

Some of men see us as prey. We just don't know which ones.

I'd fancy my chances with any women who would try to attack me.

Prey in what way?
ScreamingBeans · 29/01/2021 21:13

I am not, despite others insistence, an activist that ALL TRANS WOMEN ARE WOMEN. In fact, I don't think the person posted earlier is. But, to deny that transwomen are women end of full stop that's it so there, no I don't agree with it.

OK, so which transwomen are women? How do you know?

I have to point out again, that you have already stepped over to the dark side. Stonewall would say you are bigoted and transphobic for trying to pick and choose which transwomen are women and which aren't. Why is it up to you to choose? You either believe transwomen are women or you don't.

DialSquare · 29/01/2021 21:13

Do you really need that explained? Seriously?

BarbaraofKent · 29/01/2021 21:13

IF there was a transwomen on the team, and IF they were in at the same time as other people, then it is my belief that IF someone has an issue with that then they should get changed somewhere else.

Seriously? So if a male is in a female space and a female is uncomfortable with that, then it's the female who needs to leave the female space?

Why?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/01/2021 21:13

it's pretty arrogant to decide that because you've explained something to me, I must now accept this as fact

It is fact. You can't just make up your own facts, if you want people to take your comments seriously. Are you denying that women were chattels to men for most of human history, and still are in many parts of the world?

DialSquare · 29/01/2021 21:14

I was prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt but now I just think you're taking the piss.

Thewithesarehere · 29/01/2021 21:14

@RootyT00t
Just one post above yours, someone has posted an excellent bit of stats.
The extent of sexual violence is one of the top reasons women want their own spaces. They don’t want the same changing room with anyone who is not like them physically. Why is it so hard to understand?

OP posts:
RootyT00t · 29/01/2021 21:14

@BarbaraofKent

In the same way if I need help I don't know who is a genuinely kind lady and who might take advantage of me (Women do go out and set traps for thie r murdering partner you know, it happens. Have you researched how Ian Watkins got access to all of the children he abused) Now the obvious response is BUT THATS NOT ALL WOMEN. No it isn't. It's a minority. It's also a minority of people who actively access showers to look at women (but this is a none argument as I've already said certainly where I'm from, most showers are perfectly visible from the pool and mixed). So what's the answer there? Separate pools for men women and trans?

Sorry but the statistics just do not back up what you are saying at all. 98% of sexual offences are perpetrated by males, that's huge.

Its a huge part of the reason that we have single sex facilities in certain situations. Single sex toilets, changing rooms, refuges, hospital wards. Its why even the nice men can't come into female spaces. No one has a problem with single sex spaces when men identify as men, so objectively, what actually changes when a man feels like a woman on the inside?

Further, women are always told to take steps, to curtail their behaviour to 'keep themselves safe'. Don't get too drunk, don't wear revealing clothing, don't walk down dark alleys at night alone, don't get in taxis alone, there are perverts and dangerous men everywhere etc. And everyone knows we are talking about protecting women from men in these situations.

But as soon as women make suggestions of things that will help to keep them safe, but may mean some males not getting do what they want, then all of a sudden we are paranoid, unkind, women do it too you know blah blah blah.

But in the real world, Barbara (and I still love this), I don't live my life on statistics. I live it on life experience. We all do.

I don't disagree on your stance about women and men in terms of behaviour. It is possible to agree and disagree in different elements of the same issue.

But your last paragraph suggests you think that women in a swimming pool or gym shower are at risk of sexual abuse from a man who enters the showers. For people who talk about evidence, I've yet to see any of this.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/01/2021 21:14

So if a male is in a female space and a female is uncomfortable with that, then it's the female who needs to leave the female space?

Let's just bold this, for any lurkers.

RootyT00t · 29/01/2021 21:14

[quote Thewithesarehere]@RootyT00t
Just one post above yours, someone has posted an excellent bit of stats.
The extent of sexual violence is one of the top reasons women want their own spaces. They don’t want the same changing room with anyone who is not like them physically. Why is it so hard to understand?[/quote]
It's not hard to understand. I just disagree.

RootyT00t · 29/01/2021 21:15

@Ereshkigalangcleg

So if a male is in a female space and a female is uncomfortable with that, then it's the female who needs to leave the female space?

Let's just bold this, for any lurkers.

Not what I said.
RootyT00t · 29/01/2021 21:15

@Ereshkigalangcleg

it's pretty arrogant to decide that because you've explained something to me, I must now accept this as fact

It is fact. You can't just make up your own facts, if you want people to take your comments seriously. Are you denying that women were chattels to men for most of human history, and still are in many parts of the world?

No.

Are you denying that trans people were beaten up and killed just for being trans, and still are?

RootyT00t · 29/01/2021 21:16

@DialSquare

I was prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt but now I just think you're taking the piss.
I'm really not. If I had enough space and time in my life to rip the piss out of a thread I wouldn't do so on one based on human emotion and people's lives.
ListeningQuietly · 29/01/2021 21:17

Prostate Cancer : a disease that affects men (including ALL "transwomen" )
but no real women

Cervical Cancer : a disease that affects women (including ALL "transmen" )
but no real men

Why is biology so hard to grasp?

Thewithesarehere · 29/01/2021 21:17

But in the real world, Barbara (and I still love this), I don't live my life on statistics. I live it on life experience. We all do.

I wish things were that simple @RootyT00t.

Please point out just ONE aspect of your life and I will show you how you live in a world firmly built on statistics. Smile

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/01/2021 21:17

Are you denying that trans people were beaten up and killed just for being trans, and still are?

People are beaten up and killed for a variety of reasons, because they are different and stand out. No one here thinks that's a good thing. It is however not structural oppression.

RootyT00t · 29/01/2021 21:18

@DialSquare

Do you really need that explained? Seriously?
The prey thing?

No.

I'm asking whether it's a sexual thing, a physical thing, a power thing, a previous experience thing. That was actually a genuine question.

Tied in with me asking why people seem to think a woman in a shower or changing room is at risk of physical or sexual abuse.

Take the police force example again, if they all change together. The likelihood of a transwomen attacking a woman?

RootyT00t · 29/01/2021 21:18

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Are you denying that trans people were beaten up and killed just for being trans, and still are?

People are beaten up and killed for a variety of reasons, because they are different and stand out. No one here thinks that's a good thing. It is however not structural oppression.

Of course it is.

Why do you think gay people were killed and beaten up in the first place?