AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question - Thread 2

[Thewithesarehere]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:
“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

Thank you for all those who have responded with actual points to my post and engaged in a bit of a debate. Wasn't quite expecting the deluge and my boss is probably going to be pissed I took such a long break, but some of the points raised were really interesting

LilMidge
Do you have a daughter?
Do you want her to ever have the chance of winning a running race?
Or are you happy that she will always be beaten by boys?
because if boys can call themselves girls, they will win every race

LilMidge has already said they believe that claiming to be a sex makes you that sex.
Kudos if you can get your head around how that works. I simply am unable to have that level of belief.
I'll respect their right to believe that, just as I do any faith, but I can't make myself believe that uttering words changes a person's sex. I think people's belief that sex is immutable should also be respected.

@Whatwouldscullydo

Actually joody racism is very relevant to this discussion.

Black women are often used to justify why males should be allowed into womens spaces. That being unable to change amongst members of the opposite sex is the same black people unable to go onto shops or sit down on a bus.

That because we let black.women and but lesbians in , they cloud the definition of women to the point the next logical step is letting males have it.

And because as I said earlier, unicef campaign fir single sex toilets to allow girls access to school. So if American and British men are safe to pee next to little girls then that's insinuating that foreign men are somehow not...

I don't really understand the point you are making I'm afraid. I completely and utterly disassociate from arguments supporting racism. Like I say, a separate, but important issue and not one I am personally interested in conflating with this one.

Have posted this before on last thread.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6814599/Transgender-woman-18-sexually-assaulted-girl-10-Morrisons-female-toilets.html

So if TWAW why do you have a different opinion to them in sport? What's the difference? If they are women (in your eyes), surely they should be fine in sport (in your eyes).

The whole world has always known what a woman is Lilmidge.

Some men want to change it, without consultation, to include adult human males who identify as women based upon unspecified feelings.

I wonder who stands to gain from the change in the meaning of the word woman? I wonder who stands to lose?

No but its not yours either.

Women are not trying to redefine the word though, we're trying to keep the definition, Adult Human Female, the reason being that women are at a physical disadvantage because of there sex and biological make up not because they wear dresses and make up

No but its not yours either. You also don't get to be gatekeeper on what you consider woman and what you dont...that kind of works both ways doesn't it?

There is no 'considering' who is a woman and who isn't, so there is no 'gatekeeping'. The only possible objective way of dividing men and women is to do so by biological sex. Anything else is just opinion, dogma and personal belief.

Unless you believe that gender is a set-in-stone-cannot-be-questioned thing and biological sex is a grey area?

The parallels with racism are interesting and can be helpful in taking the emotions away

For example is ok to be a woman is not equivalent to it's ok to be white , but actually to it's ok to be black

By switching the words it's easy to see that by equating white with woman they are equating woman with the privileged class
...

Race is an artificial human construct.
It is possible to be multiply mixed "race"
Therefore racism is entirely prejudice.

Sex is based on biology
Every cell in the body is either has a Y Chromosome or it does not.
Sex is real. Denying is it delusion.

Lilmidge

If a young teenager with short hair and wearing tatty jeans and t short came and said I am getting bleeding between my legs you would have a fair idea if you should say panic or by some tampons

Don't act dumb

If Transwomen are women
should they be eligible for prostate treatment ?

If Transmen are men
should they be eligible for cervical smears?

No matter what people look like on the outside
the internal organs tell the truth

To be fair to LilMidge the question in the OP is not quite the question that Helen had been asking up to her ban on twitter.

LilMidge would this question get a different answer.

"do you think that an adult male with a penis should have the right to undress beside a teenage girl, or any woman, in a women's communal changing room?'

Please take this as being an adult male with a penis with any gender identity.

@midgedude

Oh you think that really everyone is nice if you just give them a chance?

Do you know what proportion of women suffer PTSD and other mental health problems as a result of rape/serious sexual assault? Problems often triggered easily, especially by the presence of men in vulnerable situations

Like the time I fled a quiet gym because the male in there gave me a panic attack? I never went back , ended up at a much more expensive gym that always had lots of staff around

Women deserve respect. They deserve kindness. They derserve to feel safe. If you can't find it in your heart to support people like me, what can I say ?misogeny in action ?

Sorry just one last response because I just saw this one....

I'm really sorry to hear about your experiences and the panic and anxiety you feel in certain situations. You do not deserve that- no one does. You do deserve respect and kindness.

I absolutely do not think everyone is nice and my heart truly does go out to anyone who has been a victim of assault and who now also face issues in their day to day lives due to their PTSD or who feels vulnerable in certain situations. It is absolutely not my intention to minimise your trauma.

I do not have clear solutions and like I said in another post, I do not believe there is a perfect solution to this. But I do feel that allowing transwomen into women's toilets is the best of many imperfect solutions. In tandem with that, I support you and women's rights by advocating for better treatment and belief of women who report rape and assault etc, attacking rape culture and other inequalities women face that amplify misogyny and misogynistic violence.

Again, I am so sorry to hear of your experiences and I wish I could eradicate such things and the vulnerability of being a woman. But I'm afraid I do also believe that in this particular circumstance two wrongs do not make a right. I really hope you continue to do well in your ongoing recovery and management of anxiety. Stay safe.

And why can't you accept third spaces as an option?

Lots if people aren't safe in the mens though.

What puts transwomans safety above women and above all the other vulnerable males?

What's so special abkut transwoman compared to say children, disabled men, thise with kerning difficulties, women , sick men who are weak and can't defend themselves.

Why is this one group elevated above every one else

Oh, and five words are all very well but your. actions , whose needs you prioritise , belie them

@midgedude

The parallels with racism are interesting and can be helpful in taking the emotions away

For example is ok to be a woman is not equivalent to it's ok to be white , but actually to it's ok to be black

By switching the words it's easy to see that by equating white with woman they are equating woman with the privileged class
...

Well it is so easy to misunderstand, that I feel this conflation always confuses the argument. As I say, different argument. It is frequently used to derail an argument about women's rights. So I don't find the parallels interesting, I think they are a distraction. I think each subject deserves proper discussion in it's own right. Why can't we do that?

I have used this example before, but at a local swimming pool, we have female changing rooms, male changing rooms and a communal area. My DS is 9 years old and too old to go into the female changing rooms. We waited for between 20 and 30 min to get a free cubicle out of respect for the women in the changing room, many who were religious minorities. I can assure you that my son would have posed no threat to these women. And I was there. But I don’t think it would have been right to take him. I also did not want him on his own in the males.

Some trans women want to be in the female changing rooms and not in a third space. Should it be ok for a trans women to walk around with exposed male genitalia in the female changing room? Should it be ok for my 9 year old son? Why/why not?

Apologies in advance if this has already been mentioned but I haven't read the full thread as it's so long - the subject is obviously very important to a lot of people, but for those who aren't already aware:

The government is asking for the views of members of the public on provision of toilets, with particular regard to the recent trend away from single sex toilets towards gender neutral i.e. mixed sex. If you're at all concerned about this you can express your concerns via this link:

www.gov.uk/government/consultations/toilet-provision-for-men-and-women-call-for-evidence/toilet-provision-for-men-and-women-call-for-evidence

The closing date is 29th January 2021.

So if you want to respond and haven't yet done so you need to do it TODAY.

@midgedude

And why can't you accept third spaces as an option?

You know the answer to that - because validating a transwoman is more important than women's safety and I specifically say transwomen here because if we take Prisons as an example for instance, I wonder how many transmen if sentenced would choose to spend their sentence in a male prison? has that ever happened yet? I know there have been cases of transwomen wanting in to womens prisons (and getting in and harming women when they get there) If TWAW and TMAM why would it be unlikely for a Transman to go into a mens prison even for validation? To answer that question you would have to accept that in actual fact there are significant differences between Transmen and men and therefore transwomen and women

Funnily enough I decided to google if any transmen had decided to go into mens prisons and google asked me this ...........

"Did you mean: trans women in male prison"

@LilMidge01

Thank you for all those who have responded with actual points to my post and engaged in a bit of a debate. Wasn't quite expecting the deluge and my boss is probably going to be pissed I took such a long break, but some of the points raised were really interesting

thanks for engaging with it - I really mean it. There are things at stake for us as a sex and many women don't really know the issues because they are not being allowed light and air in mainstream discussion. That actually is the major issue. Take a look at Feminism chat if you are interested in more issues. Also, hope you don't get in trouble for your long break. And finally, I do understand why you wouldn't want to use it reading 406 messages :)

Joody..now, at the risk of continuing the derail potential ..,,yip both are significantl issues in thier own right,s and derailing, side stepping and various other interesting tactics are not helpful

LilMidge01

Do you mind me asking if you feel the same about cross dressers in the female toilets? Cross dressing being sexually motivated.