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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question - Thread 2

999 replies

Thewithesarehere · 27/01/2021 21:30

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:
“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU. Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
26
DeaconBoo · 29/01/2021 11:30

You added the clarifier of "if they identify as a TW". What, to you, does that mean? You made the distinction - what is the distinction? As i asked before, is it simply the act of claiming to be male or female that makes someone male or female?

lifeturnsonadime · 29/01/2021 11:32

Lilmidge this has nothing whatsoever to do with disliking transwomen.

It's about protecting women's SEX based rights.

It's about changing the definition of the word woman to something meaningless.

I personally don't care if toilets are unisex or not but I will absolutely defend the need for single SEX spaces because I respect that removing them will result in some women not feeling comfortable.

LilMidge01 · 29/01/2021 11:33

[quote JoodyBlue]@LilMidge01 the reasons women are getting so riled up are discussed in this thread. If you don't want to, or have time to read them, fair enough. But don't disparage them if you don't know what we are talking about. If you have read them and want to talk about them there are people who, sadly, have had to engage with these topics for a long time. Like I said - you did miss something Flowers[/quote]
I think I made it clear in my post that I understood the concern to be a greater risk of men using it as a loophole to assault women (from the bits of the thread I have read as I have read some of it just not every single message, hence the disclaimer I may have missed something. I don't claim I've read all of it if I haven't)

I then explained why I dont think that is an issue

All you have told me is that this is not the issue people are upset about, but refuse to say what it is. Eh, I'm not trying to fight but I do find it weird when people clamour so much that they just want a decent debate rather than being branded bigots but then don't actually answer with anything other than 'you just don't get it'...

Anywhoo...my work-break is up...this has not been as enlightening or engaging as I thought it might be. I have learned my lesson and will avoid these sorts of threads int eh future

Winesalot · 29/01/2021 11:34

@Whatwouldscullydo

Transwomen would also have the law to protect them wouldn't they? If something happened in the mens?
This point is always conveniently hand waved away.

It seems that all safeguarding should go out the window in its attempts to prevent the crime from happening.

It's ok.... let it happen and then the law will mop up the damage. Yes.... we know just how successful sexual assault and rape prosecution is for women. Let's just throw that safeguarding away.

Oh.. but, don't let any harm come to a male in the first instance.

Do people who say these things honestly not look at it with risk adverse eyes? Or do they simply believe that nothing will happen or if it does there is NO life long damage to the victim that could and should have been prevented?

AND again with the 'women do it too'. Look at the stats for sex offences (including those for transwomen) and then please do get back to us. Also check out the science about how little strength a transwoman on cross sex hormones loses and tell us how successful a women or a child will be fighting off any male if they are confronted in a toilet.

And then maybe answer the question:

"do you think that an adult male with a penis should have the right to undress beside a teenage girl, or any woman, in a women's communal changing room?'

And yes, women's communal changing rooms exist. And if you remember the Centre Parcs articles from a couple of years ago, transwomen use them too.

lifeturnsonadime · 29/01/2021 11:35

The issue that people are concerned about is the change in the meaning of the word woman and the resultant destruction of women's sex based protections which are necessary due to biological differences, not due to the way a person may or may not 'feel'.

LilMidge01 · 29/01/2021 11:36

@DeaconBoo

You added the clarifier of "if they identify as a TW". What, to you, does that mean? You made the distinction - what is the distinction? As i asked before, is it simply the act of claiming to be male or female that makes someone male or female?
In the context of toilets, yeah. The distinction is up to them.
DeaconBoo · 29/01/2021 11:36

lilmidge
Unless they are acting inappropriately surely my knowledge of their gentalia doesn't matter?

So just to be clear - your answer to the OP is now changing to 'yes, all male-sexed people should be allowed, as long as they don't act inappropriately'?
Or you still think there is a distinction between TW and men - and TW should be allowed in and not men - yet you are unable articulate what you think this is?

Winesalot · 29/01/2021 11:36

Sorry. you already answered it.

DeaconBoo · 29/01/2021 11:36

lilmidge
Cross post - ok, so you think that claiming to be a sex makes you that sex.
Fair enough.

Whatwouldscullydo · 29/01/2021 11:37

Well as already stated they always leave befire they answer

What is a woman
How do we tell
What can we have in place that excludes all men and allows transwomen
At what point does someone become a transwoman.

They call us ttranaphobes but then all their ideas if transwomen are transphobic as they usually involve some kind.of transition and gender dysphoria which as we know are not actually requirements.

LilMidge01 · 29/01/2021 11:37

@lifeturnsonadime

The issue that people are concerned about is the change in the meaning of the word woman and the resultant destruction of women's sex based protections which are necessary due to biological differences, not due to the way a person may or may not 'feel'.
And I think my response addresses why I think allowing transwomen to use women's toilets is not destroying women's protections....
Winesalot · 29/01/2021 11:37

LilMidge01

Have you done any reading about the conflicts in rights that women are fighting against? At all? Toilets and changing rooms is really the tip of the issue.

MummBraTheEverLeaking · 29/01/2021 11:38

'Not much risk to women' goes out the window when self ID is applied.

The ladies, and other female only spaces aren't safe havens for everyone who don't want to use the mens.

You need third spaces, for all. Families, carers of the opposite sex, women who don't mind mixed changing can go there along with anyone who doesn't identify with men. If that isn't good enough, then it becomes obvious that what they actually want is validation at being one of the women. And as I mentioned upthread, women aren't validation tools.

midgedude · 29/01/2021 11:40

People should use whichever toilet they prefer?

Transwoman ... I prefer the female one
Female ....then it's no longer female , I want a female option , you've taken my choice away
Transwoman.. be kind

Female ... I'd like to use a female loo
Transwoman... well I want the one you have
Female ... but I don't want the one you have . I'm not the same as you
Transwoman.. I am the sand as you . be kind

Females ... please be kind , sexual assault , raid survivors , respect during period ... are all reasons why we want female spaces.

Transwoman .. don't weaponise your trauma. I'm far more hurt than you could ever be

lifeturnsonadime · 29/01/2021 11:41

And I think my response addresses why I think allowing transwomen to use women's toilets is not destroying women's protections....

Good for you, others don't feel the same.

Women's sex based rights are not yours to give away.

The meaning of the word woman is not yours to redefine.

AryaStarkWolf · 29/01/2021 11:41

The argument seems to be that opening the doors to women's spaces is OK because if anything bad happens to women then the law will protect them afterwards but it's unthinkable to suggest that the law would protect transwomen afterwards and they should be safe guarded, why do transwomens right to safe guarding trump womens right to safe guarding?

LilMidge01 · 29/01/2021 11:44

@DeaconBoo

lilmidge Unless they are acting inappropriately surely my knowledge of their gentalia doesn't matter?

So just to be clear - your answer to the OP is now changing to 'yes, all male-sexed people should be allowed, as long as they don't act inappropriately'?
Or you still think there is a distinction between TW and men - and TW should be allowed in and not men - yet you are unable articulate what you think this is?

No. All people should behave appropriately in toilets. that has nothing to do with the issue.

If you started leering over toilet cubicles or being abusive to someone in a toilet that is clearly wrong and someone is able to press charges against you.

That doesn't change the answer at all.

Also not sure how I have not clearlt articulated the difference- tw are women and as such will feel more comofrtable in a womans toilet to do their business, men are not women and therefore will feel more comfortable in the mens to do their business. If you're there for something other than to do your business then you are there for 'inappropriate reasons' regardless fo sex, gender, whatever....

Anyway I really did not expect quite this level of messages. really have to go, but thank you for discussing this with me. I have at least learned from this that a main concern of people is not so much the rule itself but policing it, it seems. Although I would argue toilets aren't policed currently. But I appreciate the 'social policiing' would be harder. I just dont think it poses a signficantly high risk

DialSquare · 29/01/2021 11:45

I can understand why some men want to obliterate the boundaries between the sexes but I will never understand why some women, after being advised of the conflicts and issues that could arise from it, are still happy to.

LilMidge01 · 29/01/2021 11:47

@Winesalot

LilMidge01

Have you done any reading about the conflicts in rights that women are fighting against? At all? Toilets and changing rooms is really the tip of the issue.

This thread and the OP question is about toilets.

I appreciate there are more complex issues in relation to other spaces and I do not have answers for those as I empathise with both sides, probably do not know enough about the intricacies, and therefore would not blindly comment on them until I have more info.

Whatwouldscullydo · 29/01/2021 11:49

But what is a woman.

At what point does the change happen?

What's the defining feature.

Without using a circular definitions and stereotypes. What is a woman. Ti identify as something we need to know what they re identifying as . So what is a woman

midgedude · 29/01/2021 11:50

Oh you think that really everyone is nice if you just give them a chance?

Do you know what proportion of women suffer PTSD and other mental health problems as a result of rape/serious sexual assault? Problems often triggered easily, especially by the presence of men in vulnerable situations

Like the time I fled a quiet gym because the male in there gave me a panic attack? I never went back , ended up at a much more expensive gym that always had lots of staff around

Women deserve respect. They deserve kindness. They derserve to feel safe. If you can't find it in your heart to support people like me, what can I say ?misogeny in action ?

NancyDrawed · 29/01/2021 11:50

But lilmidge how is an adult male a woman?

And if a transwoman feels more comfortable in the women's toilet, but that makes me feel less comfortable, why should the adult male's feeling of comfort trump mine?

midgedude · 29/01/2021 11:51

The thread isn't about toilets , it's about women being excluded for wanting to talk about it

ErrolTheDragon · 29/01/2021 11:51

tw are women

No, they are not. There are many TW who wouldn't agree with your assertion, btw. They know they are transwomen, and still male.

'Woman' still means 'adult human female'. 'Girl' still means 'juvenile human female'. They are words which need, for the sake of women's rights, to remain defined by objective sex not (undefinable, subjective) 'gender'.

LilMidge01 · 29/01/2021 11:52

@lifeturnsonadime

And I think my response addresses why I think allowing transwomen to use women's toilets is not destroying women's protections....

Good for you, others don't feel the same.

Women's sex based rights are not yours to give away.

The meaning of the word woman is not yours to redefine.

No but its not yours either. You also don't get to be gatekeeper on what you consider woman and what you dont...that kind of works both ways doesn't it? And the point I originally made is that I can't really see how the point of toilets (and specifically toilets...there are so many other issues we could get into..i have a very different opinion for example on TW in sports) is considered so offensive given the other options for TW and the very small risk to women...I'm not advocating getting rid of rights in all areas.

No group of people, especially one linked by something as common as a vagina, are ever going to have a homogenous approach to an issue or agreement on concepts.