JK Rowling, is she being unreasonable? YABU = don't agree with JK, YANBU = do agree with JK **MNHQ edited wonky title**

[Thepigeonsarecoming]

Massive social media debate going on with JK stating “erasing the concept of sex removes the ability of many to meaningfully discuss their lives”

Wanted to know outside the feminist board how people feel. Is she being unreasonable in being against transgender people identifying as they feel as in sex. Or is this the normal view and trans gender people should accept they are male/female dependant on their birth?

The people on twitter are being quite extreme. I don't think JK said anything hateful. I think sex and gender are separate concepts, if someone born of one gender chooses to identify as another only cruel people dont refer to them as their chosen gender, for anything scientific/research based biological sex may be of more significance, but socially is not anyone else's business. It is annoying that as soon as anyone suggests sex and gender are different concepts the internet goes nuts. I would never call a transwoman a man, but their biology and and lived experience is likely to different to that of a woman from birth. I would happily call them a woman though.

Oh mumsnet is renowned as a cesspool of transphobia because some of us dare to state the biological fact that humans can not change sex. You can make a sometimes ok-ish approximation of someone of the opposite sex by taking a load of drugs and getting a lot of surgery but you can't ever change sex. And you won't force me into the lie, no matter how much you threaten and slander and complain.

There are lots of mixed up young people with mental health problems who think when they are introduced to the trans movement that they have found the answer to why they aren't happy and don't fit it with their peers. They've found a community they do fit in with and not only do they have friends and support now, but attention - lots and lots of it, and they're suddenly cool and trendy to boot.

They have a way to vent their anger at their circumstances, or their parents, or their bullies or abusers - and that way is getting angry at women, slandering them, saying they can suck your lady dick. But if anyone dares reply pointing out the facts about the situation then that is literal violence. What do you do about that? Set a posse on them, ring the police, threaten suicide? Anything to shut them up.

Well I, for one, will not be silenced. And I'm glad JKR won't either.

@Clymene ok but lots of celebrities pipe up when they really don't need to.

ultimately, he's a guy with a different opinion
Indeed, and if DR had said, 'I'm just a guy with a different opinion and Jo should equally be able to state her opinion without getting hate messages' then you would have a point.

He chose not to.

Daniel Rafcliffe’s statement was a breath of fresh air imo

But you say that as if he has said something radical or brave. When actually he has just demonstrated misogyny and a complete disregard for the feelings of women. I find it so sad that in 2020 misogyny is viewed as a breath of fresh air.

debate something which is one sided on the feminist board

Thing is, reality isn't a debate. Clearly some men want to be women and some women want to be men. We can debate about what we can do to make them feel better. They will still be the sex they were born as, even if we all pretend they're not.

@Floisme that's totally fair.

A fair point, I mean. Not that he chose not to say that.

YANBU

He has also toed the party line completely with regards as to what is 'acceptable' for a celebrity to say. TWAW is the fashionable cause for celebrities. It is the way to get yourself publicity and a pat on the back for woke credentials. DR has nothing to lose. He won't lose his role in a film to a woman who says she is a man. He won't go to hospital expecting to be cared for in an all female ward and discover that the woman in the bed next to him has a penis. And most of all he can be certain that having stated his opinion he is unlikely to have people chasing him all over social media threatening to rape and/or kill him.

Is she being unreasonable in being against transgender people identifying as they feel

Have not RTFT but even if it has been said before, it needs repeating: JKR did not say this. Come ON, OP. This is not on. If you are going to start a thread like this, at least get the facts right??

Daniels response wasn't moderate or fair. It was white male privilege saying "shut up woman"

To a woman who gave him his platform, his wealth and his status. He stabbed her in the back, he didn't just say Jo I politely disagree with you because if XYZ. He just went fuck you Jo I'm right your wrong.

Pure white male privilege

Mumsnet isn’t the place to get a balanced perspective on this, or a tolerant one.

Why should women be tolerant of our own oppression by a subset of men who have the cheek to claim they actually are us?

If science is working on making an artificial womb for men who want to pretend they are women, then I fucking despair. There are millions of more important and worthwhile things to be working on.

There are millions of more important and worthwhile things to be working on

Science could start by understanding that female bodies exist, and test medicines etc on female bodies, instead of assuming that the male body is the default.

Posters should read, if they haven't already, the book Invisible Women. Plenty of projects to keep science going for a long time there.

My issue with DR was that he said I don't have enough knowledge about all the issues at stake so I'm not qualified to question the TWAW mantra and therefore neither is Jo. That's a breathtaking level of arrogance, given JKR has stated she's been informing herself for the last three years.

Is she being unreasonable in being against transgender people identifying as they feel

JK Rowling said the exact opposite. If you have to lie to excuse mysogynistic abuse then you are in the wrong. If what she actually said is so awful then why not just quote and let people make up their own minds.

@AlternativePerspective I agree with your point about the extremes, but I must disagree with this part of your post:

But the majority of people from both sides are in the middle, with most women not giving a shit how someone identifies

Middle-ground women, like myself, DO give a shit when we are faced with young daughters or DGDs sharing a changing room with a TRA or even just a non-aligned transwoman.

It's why JKR is right to stand up for the use of the word 'woman' rather than 'menstruator': there has got to be a point we stand firm on, or our daughters will face a horrible future.

Watching about it on Loose Women now

@purpleme12

Watching about it on Loose Women now

Hopefully they won’t lie about what she actually said

I was not happy with the way it was spoken about on loose women. There was a lot of tiptoeing around the guest to not offend anyone.

I hate what the world has become. Basic science is being forgotten and freedom of speech is being deleted.

Yeah I wonder what they thought in private whether they would have stuck up for her

People in the middle are incredulous when you point out that it's not enough to politely pretend that men can literally be women even if they have a penis and beard, you must actually believe it too.

Hopefully they won’t lie about what she actually said

I think most normal people who do not follow this on twitter are quite surprised to find that people really believe TWAW.
I agree with JK, as most people I know in the real world do.