JK Rowling, is she being unreasonable? YABU = don't agree with JK, YANBU = do agree with JK **MNHQ edited wonky title**

[Thepigeonsarecoming]

Massive social media debate going on with JK stating “erasing the concept of sex removes the ability of many to meaningfully discuss their lives”

Wanted to know outside the feminist board how people feel. Is she being unreasonable in being against transgender people identifying as they feel as in sex. Or is this the normal view and trans gender people should accept they are male/female dependant on their birth?

I rarely get involved in these discussions and have the feminist boards hidden for that reason.

But tbh I think the trans debate is far too polarised.

On the one side you have those who believe they are a woman at all costs and have the right to exactly the same rights and recognissions as women who are born female.

On the other side you have the radical feminists who spout the kind of language that “I won’t accept anyone with a penis as a woman,”.

But the majority of people from both sides are in the middle, with most women not giving a shit how someone identifies and most transgender women just wanting some acceptance and to get on with their lives.

But because it’s always the most radical who’ shouts the loudest it’s become too much of an us and them discussion with the majority being excluded either way.

“I won’t accept anyone with a penis as a woman,”.

This is not an extreme position. Women don't have penises is a fact not an opinion.

"radical feminists who spout the kind of language that “I won’t accept anyone with a penis as a woman,”

I don't think you need to be a radical feminist to know that anyone with a penis isn't a woman!

That doesn't mean they can't dress, present etc however they wish. But unless we have overthrown the meaning of 'woman' then a man is not one.

People really do spout some reality denying nonsense.

Penis = male

No female people have a penis.

Ironically what some are arguing is that Rowling essentially said that men can't ever be women. Men who were born female are the individuals who menstruate but do not identify as women. So why it was suddenly the case that she was offending male to female transgender people is beyond me.

But why should anyone give a shit.

There’s a difference between saying someone can be identified as a woman for the purposes of living their life, which actually harms no-one, and acknowledging that someone who is transgender shouldn’t be able to compete in female sports or enter female only spaces if they’ve not had gender re-assignment surgery.

The latter is understandable and should be debated. But while the former still sits in place and is upheld the latter will never have any kind of meaningful discussion.

And these threads should be confined to feminism because the majority of people don’t want to get involved in this kind of trans bashing.

MittensTheSerpent
This is just a small example of the abuse she's suffered on Twitter...

Don’t know a single women who would say suck my dick as an insult. Or suck my fanny for that matter. Funny that.

But why should anyone give a shit

In social justice language (presuming you actually think women as a sex class have rights), educate yourself.

But Alternate the two are not separate issues they are the same issue, if you accept that ‘trans women are women’ (former point) then how can you also then say, but not when it comes to sport, women only spaces, and other spheres of life where being female is a protected characteristic.
I think the best we can say is each person is entitled to believe and live their lives as whatever they think they are, and they should be treated with kindness and respect, but everyone’s biological sex is a fundamental immutable truth and where that intersects with society (eg women only spaces, sports whatever else) it has to be acknowledged, respected and protected.

When women (biological) can have full autonomy over their reproductive systems ie being allowed to be sterilised if they choose just because they know they don't and will never want children I will be happy. A woman suffering due to her reproductive system either mentally or physically finds it very hard to have that addressed. There is an inbuilt assumtion that she doesn't really "know her own mind" even in her 20s and 30s, she may regret such a profound decision in the future and is "protected" by the medical profession who can deny her request because they know better. She isn't trying to negate her womanhood, she wants to avoid an unwanted pregnancy and the trauma that may cause.

But extensive medical intervention is now unquestioningly sanctioned for those who have gender issues from late teens onwards.

Level playing fields should mean level playing fields.

My Mum wanted to be sterilised after she had me. She knew she didn't want more children. The Doctor actually said he wouldn't sanction it in case something happened to me, assuming that she would need to replace me. My mother was appalled. later, having exploratory gynae surgery she spoke to the female registrar who agreed to tie her tubes while she was in there because there was no good reason not to, so she did get her wish, but not before she had been patronised and insulted by the male medical practitioner.

Women apparently can't know their own mind unless they want to be a man or are already a man who appropriates womanhood.

It's difficult to be kind when it appears that people want to be unkind and reductive to you - because of your biological sex.

And JKR should not be insulted and silenced for stating facts.

AlternativePerspective
You've described this thread as "trans bashing" but appear to have no awareness that comments in your own post would be labelled as transphobic by TRA's and likely result in abuse and threats of violence if you posted them on twitter.

You only have to look at the abuse received my Martina Navratilova and Sharon Davies for evidence of this. Strangely Daley Thompson was not subject to the same abuse, I wonder what the difference was?

What is the result at mo? I can't see polls on the app!

92% in support of JKR

If we take it as true that there is no universal 'feeling like a woman' then we are led to the question are feelings being confused for a thought? (a common modern day phenomenon)

This has a truer ring to it as 'I think I'm a woman' when said by a man is the definition of a transwomen and whilst we can believe that the person has had this thought we know that the reality is different.

With my counsellor hat on, I've given some thought to the 'I feel like a woman' statement.

The only sense I can gather from it is the social conditioning which states that 'males don't feel' any emotions therefore indicating in the mind of the speaker that if one has emotions/feelings this equates to being a woman.

YANBU. It’s alarming how happy some men are to give away women’s rights. Looking at you, Daniel Radcliffe. They 👏 are 👏 not 👏 your 👏 rights 👏 to 👏 give 👏 away 👏

“I won’t accept anyone with a penis as a woman,”

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is what classes as an extreme opinion these days.

I am an extremist because I don't believe that women have penises.

I can't see the poll to vote or view the results.

I'm with JK

Trans bashing? Reality is not bashing anyone.

That's like going over to The Litter Tray section of Mumsnet and berating all the cat owners for not accepting that Great Danes can be cats.

"radical feminists who spout the kind of language that “I won’t accept anyone with a penis as a woman,”

Like that well known radical feminist organisation called the Catholic church for example?

AlternativePersepctive if you posted your very calm, very moderate and understanding post on to Twitter....you would be labelled a TERF would receive threats of violence and told to suck someone dick.

Honestly I understand what you are saying, and as a pretty moderate person who is all for let people be people, but biology needs to be accepted as fact and women's spaces need to be safe. I'd get burnt as a witch by the trans community.

It's literally crazy.

I agree with her but I also don't understand why people are being really harsh about Daniel Radcliffe? He's probably influenced by the people around him and ultimately, he's a guy with a different opinion, not evil incarnate.

most women not giving a shit how someone identifies and most transgender women just wanting some acceptance and to get on with their lives

Most women don’t realise that the end result of this is:
Destruction of woman’s sport
Girls being expected to change in front of naked middle aged men.
Women in prison being locked in a cell with male rapists.
Women victims of male abuse, rape, violence being expected to be counselled by men who are telling them they are women.
100% male public boards being considered ‘gender equality’
Women with dementia being denied hospital treatment because they cannot lie and say a man is a women so are removed for transphobia.
Women die because public health messages ignore the fact that something like cervical cancer affects women and instead uses language like ‘people with a cervix’ which means nothing to them.
Equal pay legislation becoming unenforceable.
Children are sterilised.
Gendered roles are reinforced
Women will no longer be able to ask for a female doctor
Teenage girls will have to accept being measured for a bra by a man with a fetish.
And so it goes on.

Because he didn't need to say anything. Without her, his career would have never happened.

I voted ynbu.
Which the majority have on here so why's she getting such a backlash if this is reflective of the majority?
I wouldn't describe myself as a feminist but the things she says and the things I read on the feminist board about all of this make sense

Daniel Rafcliffe’s statement was a breath of fresh air imo. Mumsnet isn’t the place to get a balanced perspective on this, or a tolerant one.