To not really understand why some people are so upset by transwomen using public toilets?

[MyGastIsFlabbered]

I'm sorry if this offends, but I really don't understand why this is such a contentious topic. I know transwomen and they just want to pop into a cubicle, do their business and leave. I understand that there is a fear of being attacked, but I honestly think if someone is of a mind to do that they'll do it whether dressed as a woman or not.

Sexual assaults are far more likely to happen in the home, and to be committed by someone known to the victim (sadly, very often relatives.) It is possible that women fear violence in such places

Don't be an arse. Sexual assaults outside of the home are -sadly - a fact. And all too common. What kind of 'person' attempts to portray them as otherwise?

"I find it rather depressing that there is an assumption that those with penises somehow need to be kept away from those without penises in order to prevent the former attacking the latter."

Right, I absolutely promise that I don't think that. Not for a second. Now please will you address the points that have been made about vulnerable women, and raped women and whether or not they should be cared for by someone with a beard and moustache who identifies as a woman.

This is getting ridiculous to the point I'm actually thinking why don't we just swap the bloody signs on the doors.

Then men, whatever gender they identify with, can use the ladies.

With no males in the mens, it then becomes a female space.

Well, as for relatives, a quick google for 'trans widows' should show what women and girls in the families of men who id as trans have been subjected to by those men.

Transwomen dont just pop out of nowhere into being. They have history as males first, and many of them leave ex wives and children ground into the dust behind them.

Race does actually work as an analogy. The best examples are the arguments used about black people in Jim Crow America. White people's of black people was used to keep them out of white waiting rooms, white toilets, white cafes, etc. And of course, occasionally crimes were committed by black people, and those crimes were used as an excuse to keep all black people away from all white people. But to do was statistically irrational and discriminatory... Something that thankfully civilised, right-thinking people now acknowledge. As I suspect, in due course, civilised, right-thinking people will acknowledge that the current hysteria over transwomen in women-only spaces is also misplaced, and a thin cover for simple discrimination and hatred of 'otherness.'

And men's actual violence against women is trivialised yet again!

It is estimated that 6% of the male population are rapists so if that is correct 94% of men are not.

So why have female anything? Most men aren't rapists so why have women's toilets, refuges, wards, prisons etc etc?

If there were no such thing as female spaces what would transwomen do?

Either men and women are sex segregated for a reason or they are not and it's just sexist and selfish why women won't let men, regardless of what gender they identify as, use their facilities.

Stopfucking- I don't for a minute believe that every TW is going to attack me. And I don't think anyone does.

But I don't know how to tell the difference between a TW and a man who puts on a dress to gain access to women's spaces to assault them. Do you?

...The best examples are the arguments used about black people in Jim Crow America. Transwomen's fear of men keep them out of men's toilets, etc. And of course, occasionally crimes were committed by men against transwomen and those crimes were used as an excuse to allow men who identify as women into women's spaces. But to do was statistically irrational and discriminatory...

MxMarmite I don't think your grasp of stats is quite as good as you think it is.

Firstly, sexual assault has never been divided along race lines in the way it is on sex. It is not and has never been the case that 95% of sexual assault is committed by black people. To claim it is equally irrational to want single sex spaces as racially separated ones glosses over that pretty damn important distinction.

Secondly, when sexual assault happens with the frequency as it does, the fact that it is more common in the home is a pretty hopeless argument for why we should not be worried about it happening elsewhere. 10% of a fuck load is still an awful lot.

And speaking as someone who has been the victim of a peeping tom in a shop changing room I am not hugely impressed by your naive belief that this kind of thing is very rare. I didn't report, I was too shocked and distressed so I got dressed as fast as I could and got the hell out of there. I wonder how many other women he spied on that day, without even ending up in any statistics.

anyone who thinks Reddit is a serious source of information is deluded.

also people are STILL deflecting and getting all het up about imaginary situations that might happen but which all feature a woman being threatened or made to feel 'uncomfortable' by presumably a bearded man in a dress wearing lipstick and waving his cock about.

if some men hide in toilets and attack women, and some men who want to hide in toilets and attack women dress as women in order to facilitate this, why on earth are trans women to blame?

and let's not pretend that any trans thread doesn't quickly devolve into posters shouting about dicks and men and deliberate misgendering. which is hateful. and the weird little echo chamber here is hideous. and lol at the citing of fucking Reddit of all places as a source of factual information. Reddit! the same Reddit that let sex offenders post pictures of underage girls in the name of 'freedom of expression'.

as I said, risible.

Vincent that is so unbelievably transphobic. When they get the entire operation and are fully and legally considered female, are they still just "some bloke with delusions?" I really feel for your daughter, learning such hateful views from her mother.

Rofl MissAsippi right back at you, I feel for your kids learning that delusional men should be validated at any cost.

I will march with transwomen and campaign with them for their own facilities, for them not to be discriminated against, to not suffer violence, for access to healthcare. Their own space. I will stand behind them every step of the way.

However, genuine transwomen (like Caryl's friend and the friends and family of many posters on here) and also women/girls everywhere are being thrown under the bus by a group of new wave TRAs many of whom do have a sexual agenda. Not all, but a significant percentage of men identifying as transwomen (17% to 80% depending on the vested interest of the site in question).

When I had no idea what autogynephelia was (arousal over the idea of oneself as a woman), out of interest I googled 'how many transwomen have AGP' . This is what changed my mind:

From the first 5 sites I saw. Verbatim.

'...it's the humiliation part of being a woman that I like'.

'...forced feminization, mysogyny and humiliation...looking at porn of women and imagining them as victims. That was my main mode of fantasy'.

'It was really a humiliation fetish...like how embarrassing it would be to be a woman and do girly things'.

'If the psychiatrists thought for one second that we were getting turned on by silk panties, our transition plans could be pushed back'.

'...some non-trans women get turned on by their bodies and clothes...the feel of silk, the sheer negligee, a tight skirt showing off their ass, the smell of a leather jacket,thigh-high boots, a riding crop. The self love makes you feel validated...it's acceptable for real women to do this, it's often encouraged'.

'...for the record everything that can be packed into that non-medical description that has been called "AGP" is the same thing that natal born women experience. Every tiny bit of it'.

There is a firmly held belief that ALL women get turned on by their own clothing. AGP is enhanced by being in women's intimate spaces.

Vincent you haven't answered the question... And also what are your thoughts on ftm?

Also they are not legally or otherwise considered female as female is a biological category that no amount of surgery can change. They may be legally considered women, but they shouldnt be. People can disagree with a law without breaking it, you know.

As for ' the entire operation', when men make a hole and call it a vagina, I consider that to be a pretty extreme form of misogyny. A neo-vagina is a hole, a channel, it has none of the properties of an actual vagina. In many cases its a bit of someones colon that has been repurposed. How offensive is it that a piece of colon can be called a vagina??

its not even a channel because it doesnt lead anywhere.

Does that answer your question MissAsippi? If it doesnt dont bother to ask again, Im really not bothered to continue responding to someone who a) expresses misogynist views and b) personally atracks me with accusations of bigotry and c) drags my kids into it. Catch yourself on.

if some men hide in toilets and attack women, and some men who want to hide in toilets and attack women dress as women in order to facilitate this, why on earth are trans women to blame

I'm assuming that you don't mean a MtT attacking a woman in this case? (Although they do, of course, commit crime at the same rate as males). I think the point you are missing is that it is not possible to tell a MtT from a male attacker in a dress. By saying that anyone identifies as a female can access a female spaces you are taking the right away from women to challenge any male who enters a female space.

When they get the entire operation and are fully and legally considered female, are they still just "some bloke with delusions?

That is quite harsh, but effectively true. It is not possible to change sex. It is possible to do various things to mimic the opposite sex, but changing sex is not possible. A GRC means that a person should be treated as female, but they are not a female. A MtT will never need smear test reminders sent out for example.

I'd still like someone to answer why, if you think it's outrageous and hysterical that women should feel threatened by being in the loos (changing rooms, prisons, gynaecological examinations etc) with men, that transwomen should feel threatened with being in the loos(etc) with men and therefore need to be in the women's loos?

Girls spend a lot of their childhood being told they must be modest, not show their underwear to the boys, even accidentally when doing a handstand for example.
Then suddenly it's apparently A OK for people with penises to be using the same changing area? I just can't get my head around why that's now ok? And also how do we tell a genuine trans person who just wants to get on with things from a sexual predator?
I think it's approx 75% of tw who are attracted to women. So the innocent, elderly, tw who is only interested in men sexually is definitely in a minority.
Yes there are conflicting rights. I wonder if all those people who are claiming there is transphobia on this thread have daughters? Would their daughters be entirely comfortable with someone they have previously known as a boy suddenly being in the girls changing room and all the born girls must now get undressed in front of them or be called bigots?
Come on, this is bullshit isn't it?

And I don't believe anyone is getting any abusive pms from anyone who is gender critical and posting on this thread. I just don't believe it

also people are STILL deflecting and getting all het up about imaginary situations that might happen but which all feature a woman being threatened or made to feel 'uncomfortable' by presumably a bearded man in a dress wearing lipstick and waving his cock about.

Do transwomen fearing to use the men's toilets base their fear on similar "imaginary situations" ??

Or is it just women who are prone to making up stories?

Again here we have yet another example of women's real-life experiences of male violence being trivialised and ridiculed.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/gendertrender.wordpress.com/2014/03/28/arizona-elementary-school-blockades-all-urinals-in-boys-bathrooms-after-multiple-incidents-involving-female-transgender-children/amp/?client=safari

The link above shows how children identifying as the opposite sex affects their classmates' privacy and dignity. How does anyone propose we solve these kinds of problems where rights conflict?

I don't know what an mtt is.

Mtt = male to trans, i.e. a man who identifies as a woman

I don't know what an mtt is.

Ex-wife: m2t or MTT = Male to Trans

Reddit, despite all its failings, is just people talking on the internet, exwife. Like we are here.

Why should what they say be taken any less seriously than what you do?

And I really think if you checked out some of the transgender forums on there it would open your eyes about what some of these men think about women.

Datun has posted a handy list of quotations. Go on, have a look.