To not really understand why some people are so upset by transwomen using public toilets?

[MyGastIsFlabbered]

I'm sorry if this offends, but I really don't understand why this is such a contentious topic. I know transwomen and they just want to pop into a cubicle, do their business and leave. I understand that there is a fear of being attacked, but I honestly think if someone is of a mind to do that they'll do it whether dressed as a woman or not.

[noeffingidea]

pklme rich men rape too, you know.
(not all men, of course).

[VestalVirgin]

Eh? how does poverty and cultural bigotry cause men's violence against women?

If by "cultural bigotry" one means "sexism", then perhaps that makes some sense. Sexism does not cause all male violence (as evident in the fact that men are also violent against each other) but I guess it causes some of it.

But poverty ... well, I would feel much safer in a changing room with a working class lesbian than in a changing room with Donald Trump, so there is that.

[VincentVL]

almondpudding - it was MissAsipi that used elderly women as a misogynist trope, not Bertrand. As in, women who dont believe that men can become women by surgery will eventually all become embrassing old grandmothers with their old fashioned views. I paraphrase but thats basically what MA said.

[MxMarmite]

Bertrand - well, no, in that context I don't think victims of assault should be forced into being cared for by anyone they're not comfortable with. But that would be generally true of anyone they're not comfortable with. If they had been attacked by a woman (rare, I know, but it happens) they would be within their rights to ask to be cared for by a man. If a particular physical characteristic or the mannerism of the carer had traumatic associations (an accent, say) then they should be able to request a different carer. It would be no judgement on that particular person, just an acknowledgement of the specifics of a situation where someone was badly traumatised. But I wouldn't use that as an example to justify discrimination against trans people across the board.

[BertrandRussell]

Anyway.

Anyone up for discussion what happens when one person's right to an all female space or practicioner conflicts with another person's right to self identify as a woman?

Or is someone just going to swing in like Tarzan, say that the thread is vile, transphobic and bullying and should be deleted and swing out again?

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

If they had been attacked by a woman (rare, I know, but it happens) they would be within their rights to ask to be cared for by a man

In this situation how do you define "woman" and "man"

[venusinscorpio]

It is a good example, Mx, because many transactivists, who are getting policy changed, think it's transphobia and hate speech to say that a transwoman is a man and so women, frail and elderly or not, shouldn't ever, under any circumstances be allowed to make that distinction. Because transwomen are women and anyone who thinks differently is a bigot.

They have no empathy with women.

[VestalVirgin]

But I wouldn't use that as an example to justify discrimination against trans people across the board.

No one wants to discriminate against trans people across the board.

It is just that a woman who requests a female carer should not be given a transwoman, because transwomen are male.
They can care for those who want to be cared for by males, without problem.

Your suggestion would only cause emotional pain to transwomen who, instead of just not getting into such a situation, would experience rejection on an individual basis, again and again.

Transwomen who just want to live and let live will not want to be pushed on women who wanted a female carer, and those who want to invade female spaces will NOT be happy that you think women should be allowed to reject them individually.
You think what you suggest is a compromise, but in reality, it will make no one happy.

[averylongtimeago]

Bertrand, you won't get an answer, I've never seen one anyway.

Women should just shut up and move over, is all that's ever said.

[RestlessTraveller]

Actually Vincent I don't see any penis as a threat. I simply refuse to live that way. You might as well say any woman is a threat, because women have also been found guilty of sexual assault

[VincentVL]

Anyone up for discussion what happens when one person's right to an all female space or practicioner conflicts with another person's right to self identify as a woman?

Tbf this has been answered many times, if not directly. What happens is the male's feelings are validated and his own right to space is expanded, and the females are insulted and their right to space is limited. And some women are okay with this because they self identify as the type of cool girl who calls those other women hysterical, bigoted and old fashioned, all in the service of male fantasy.

[almondpudding]

What are you arguing for Traveller, a complete end to separate facilities for males and females?

Unisex prisons, school showers, etc?

[Datun]

RestlessTraveller

Good for you. You need have no concern, in that case.

[RestlessTraveller]

I was just agreeing with the OP. It's not something that bothers me.

[VincentVL]

RestlessTraveller - any woman is not a threat because women actually have very low rates of committing violent crimes, especially sexual assault crimes.

Are you being deliberately disingenuous or is this genine ignorance on your part as to who commits most violent crime, men or women?

[MxMarmite]

To an extent Betrand I agree with you - it is about balancing out people's rights. And it is nuanced. But to simply say 'I'm threatened by it, therefore it shouldn't happen' isn't at all nuanced (I'm not saying that's what you've said at all - but it is what a lot of people are saying.)

When I was having my son I had a male midwife (born male or not? No idea, never thought to question that til now!). It didn't bother me at all, but I got into a conversation with him and asked if anyone ever is bothered by it. He replied that yes, sometimes, and that in those circumstances he would hand over to a woman, but that it was quite rare for that to happen. But to follow the line of thought of some people here he shouldn't have been in that role at all. I was vulnerable; I was naked; he was male; he had a penis (I assume; I didn't ask.) It was very much a 'female space.' I would understand a woman not wanting that, and I would respect it (as did he). But his right to pursue the career he enjoyed also needed to be respected. It would be awful if he hadn't be allowed to do that job because of a blanket ban on male midwives to 'protect' women.

My point is, I agree women are at times vulnerable. But the effort to protect them doesn't need to be at the expense of innocent men (trans men / trans women / etc) across the board, and should never be used as a cover for downright discrimination.

[almondpudding]

So do you think there should be unisex prisons and school showers? If not, why not?

[BertrandRussell]

"But to follow the line of thought of some people here he shouldn't have been in that role at all."
Can you show me where anyone has said anything of the sort?

[HuskyLover1]

Most men who have Trans to female, fancy women? I had no idea! for me then, on that one! I suppose I've always assumed that they want to be a woman and would fancy men.

So, I suppose my last comment should really be, that if I had to choose to share a communal changing room with a person, I would choose for that to be a person who was not attracted to females. It's pure theory, as to be honest I'd not be comfortable getting undressed in front anyone (apart from DH).

My postie is trans. I have nothing but admiration for the journey that she has travelled. And yes, I do see her as a “she”. I would not feel intimidated, if she was in the same public toilet as me.

[mogonfoxnight]

I don't care what toilet anyone uses as long as they aren't a threat to me or my dc or anyone else.

I am very live and let live. I try not to ever get offended if at all possible because life is too short. VelvetVL, the only people who are allowed to invade my space are my dc.

[almondpudding]

I would absolutely ban male midwives. Many women would not feel able to speak up, and there is not always the option of choosing a female midwife instead.

[LumelaMme]

Actually Vincent I don't see any penis as a threat. I simply refuse to live that way.
Well, jolly good for you. That isn't an option for everyone.

You might as well say any woman is a threat, because women have also been found guilty of sexual assault
Here we go again. Let me explain. MEN (biological males, with the XY chromosomes) are MORE LIKELY, MUCH more likely, to commit violent or sexual assaults than are women (with the XX chromosomes). They are also bigger and stronger than most women. Consequently, women (XX) are more concerned about unknown men than unknown women. If I had a choice about travelling home in a train carriage with one other passenger who was a woman vs one other passenger who was a man, I would, all else being equal, sit in the carriage with the woman.

And yes, I have been sexually assaulted. Not badly, but several times, and every time by.... A MAN.

[FRETGNIKCUF]

MxM I too had a male midwife and it made me feel uncomfortable. He was lovely, I didn't feel threatened but I asked for a female.

[RestlessTraveller]

I know full well who commits the most violent crime but I for me I refuse to let this determine my behaviour. I appreciate it's different for some people but that's how it is for me and I simply do not have an issue with the type of genitals the person in the next cubicle has.

I'm going to chose not to address the question of the showers or prisons because I've read the transgender threads on here and I know that anything I say will be twisted by the overwhelming transphobia on this site.

[MxMarmite]

Betrand - it's the logical extension of the view that 'men attack women... Women should therefore be protected from men... Men should therefore not be in situations where women are vulnerable (eg toilets... Changing rooms... The labour ward...)'