To not really understand why some people are so upset by transwomen using public toilets?

[MyGastIsFlabbered]

I'm sorry if this offends, but I really don't understand why this is such a contentious topic. I know transwomen and they just want to pop into a cubicle, do their business and leave. I understand that there is a fear of being attacked, but I honestly think if someone is of a mind to do that they'll do it whether dressed as a woman or not.

Old fashioned. You're going to be that grandmother that the family cringe at during Christmas dinner because her views are so backwards.

Also see:
gendertrender.wordpress.com/2015/10/06/voyeurism-incidents-lead-to-closure-of-gender-neutral-bathrooms-on-toronto-college-campus/

yetanotherspartacus oh come ON! I have no idea whether trans women have fears that could be considered imaginary. the point is, that neither do you. and where have I suggested that women are prone to making up stories?

although just up thread, bertrandrussell wanted to discuss a situation they just imagined which involved an imaginary old lady being attended to by an imaginaryman with a beard who has said he is a woman in order for this to happen. so there's that.

lol at more personal attacks full of misogyny. When (if) im a grandmother I shall delight in making my family cringe, its one of the perks of being a grandparent.

Revealing of your attitude to elderly women though. Are you capable of engaging in a discussion without employing misogynist tropes and concepts, I wonder?

Oh has the old "wahh, people on this thread are sending me abusive PMs" been trotted out. I missed that.

Do try to be original please, otherwise this gets boring.

Still no one commented on this...

I know a woman who was admitted to a psyc ward as she was delusional that all men were out to get her. She was actively afraid of her DH when he visited.
A transwoman was put in the ward with her. Her mh was impacted negatively, but at least the male-person felt validated.

Why does one delusion have priority over another?

Once again, haven't RTFT due to having other things to do than keep up with MN, so sorry if this has already been said:
If we had proper laws and implementation of those laws this would not imo be an issue. Because every predator who tried to exploit trans issues for their own agenda would be in jail.
Oh I wish. That's never going to happen, and I can't see how it ever could.

Caryl, I think your friend Margaret is biologically male but socially female and I would treat her as a woman and not bat an eye at seeing her in a women's loo. And in saying that I don't want any man who claims he feels female to be able to stroll into the ladies, I do not condone attacks on butch lesbians (or on FtM, either).

Like a lot of posters, I think the whole toilets issue is the thin end of the wedge.

oh come ON! I have no idea whether trans women have fears that could be considered imaginary. the point is, that neither do you.

The point is that some MtT believe they are entitled to use female spaces as they feel uncomfortable in male spaces. Yet somehow women aren't entitled to feel uncomfortable with males in their spaces.

... yes I see what you are trying to do ... and yes I do agree with it - i.e. the real issue isn't the toilet!

ExWife - where you say this "imaginary situations that might happen but which all feature a woman being threatened or made to feel 'uncomfortable' by presumably a bearded man in a dress wearing lipstick and waving his cock about" don't you see how that sounds like a made up straw-man scenario to ridicule women who are legitimately afraid of men's violence?

"...imaginary situations that might happen but which all feature a transwoman being threatened or made to feel 'uncomfortable' by entering the toilet of their anatomical sex - presumably they might meet a group of men just lurking there to trans-bash!"

yeah, no. there are also people on Reddit who dress as ponies and watch children's cartoons. should we ban ponies?

Reddit is full of threads where young women put marker pens in their vaginas or anuses and post photos to be critiqued by men. are those men and their attitude to women also a definitive representation of how men see women? are the women posting photos the same as ALL women?

The old lady I was talking about was absolutely not imaginary. She struggled to cope with the idea of needing help with personal care and had a number of discussions about it with me, her dil. She absolutely refused to talk to her (male) gp, the only way she would accept help is by constant reassurance that her carers would be female.
She told me at length why she didn't want to go into respite care or a home - she was afraid she would be forced to accept intimate care from males.

The logical conclusion from accepting that all you need to do to be accepted as a female anywhere is to say "I am a woman" is that yes, MiL, your "female" carer may in fact have a penis.

missAsippi I don't think you answered my question earlier. (If so, please point your answer out to me).
Do you believe patients should have the right to receive personal/intimate care from a carer /hcp of the same biological sex as themselves?
Or do you think the rights of the hcp to self identity as their chosen gender should override the patients wishes?

and also, I have paraphrased bertrand's post. the straw man of bearded men in nursing homes is described, as is the 'misogynistic trope' of an elderly lady feeling uncomfortable. take it up with Bertrand. except you won't.

"there are also people on Reddit who dress as ponies and watch children's cartoons. should we ban ponies?"

Think you are missing the point by a vast amount - "there are men who dress as women, should we ban women" is how your analogy seems to work?

Are you trying to say men dress as transwomen? Because they dont. They 'dress as' women and call themselves transwomen and according to the current rhetoric self definition makes it so. They cant be fake transwomen because there is no such thing, once you say it you are it, that is the philosophy promoted by trans activists and what they want legislation to reflect.

exWifebeginsat40

I agree, that in the wealth of humanity, there are going to be some very strange people indeed. However the quotes that I wrote, were written by transwomen TO transwomen. There is site after site.

There are some very respectable AGP sufferers. Grayson Perry self identifies. He is quite open about it. However, he does not comsider himself a woman, nor is he demanding access to vulnerable women and children.

Yet I agree to some extend with your comment.

But I want to know. How can we make the difference between a 'real' trans, aka someone who is really trying to live as a woman, doesnt have a functioning penis and certainly would not think about using it in its intended ways, and a 'not so real' tartans, aka someone who has jumped the bandwagon and is wanting to get the best out of everything (eg I am a woman but I am still playing golf with the men, I am happy to rape a woman, etc).

The issue has more to do with how you define a trans imo. I am not convinced that most trans are a risk to women. I do think that SOME people who declare themselves trans are.

And then you ahve the issue raised by bertrand. Ok in toilets, you arent really faced by the sex of the other person. Trans or not, it doesnt matter does it? You wont see them etc..
But what about a sauna? The Swedish way (naked), what about showers (the german way, naked).
What about the woman, who for religious reason, can only be seen by a woman to do an examination etc..? What will trump there? Respecting the wish of the woman and her religion or not being transphobic and considering that a male who has 'socially transitioned' is also a woman, despite the functioning penis?
What about a woman who has been raped, is trying to flee domestic abuse and violence? Should their right to feel safe be squashed by the rights of trans?

In effect, the question is, which right is the most important?
Should the rights of people who used to be male and have male privilege and dont want to loose it by becoming a woman with less privilege have the priority over the rights of women?
What is saying that their rights are more important than the women's?
Why the rights of a minority (and they are a very small minority) should trump the rights of 50% of the population?

IMO, a lot of those issues would be solved if there was a much stricter definition of trans.
I personally would have few issue with a MtF who has fully transitioned, has had surgery (ie no functioning penis anymore) and is fully integrated as a woman (ie no beard, no going to the men's club and switching to being a man or a woman when it suits).
It also means that a FtM trans is also someone who has no period, will not get pregnant etc...
At the moment, the definition of a trans is too vague, also probably because it seems impossible to define what makes a man or a woman....

The one delusion trumping the other

Well the transwomen is male that is a biological fact that can not be changed

Her delusional state of mind made her fear males and she needed to be in a space where she felt safe and at that point in time that is to be away from males and the transwomen is male

If a signifcant minority of men were not violent and sexually violent would we need segregated spaces?

If we didn't insist men do x and women do y would we have such problems with gender?

If a significant proportion of mtt are getting off on the humiliation of acting like a woman is it something that women should be made to tolerate in sex segregated spaces? Is it humilitating to be a woman? It feels like we're having the piss taken out of us.

I am currently not recieving a specific service I need from the NHS because they have no women locaaly providing that service. When I spoke to a receptionist about that she told me that there are lots of other women also requesting a female practitioner for this service but they "just dont have one". I wonder how many women are struggling, as I am and I assure you I am struggling with this, alone because we have no access to a female practitioner? It wont make the NHS seek one out, unfortunately, this particular need seems invisible to them.

If they put me on to a female practitioner and I went and it was a man who identifies as a laydee I would feel insulted and decieved. It is a deception and one that is right in our faces, total gaslighting.

I think you've hit the nail on the head, Handbag. We shouldn't be made to tolerate it. No other oppressed group would be made to tolerate having their dignity violated in this way.

Hummus - I'm not actually sure that we disagree? I think you may be taking my comments out of context??? In any case, I do agree with your post and can certainly see the conflict in rights that you talk about. My personal view is that women's rights should come out trumps, but I'm also aware that the question was aimed at the transactivists to answer ...

'women' are not analogous to 'white' and 'men' are not analogous to 'black'.

Women have historically been denied access to services and spaces

HummusForBreakfast

The simple answer is you can't tell the difference. The transactivists have made it very clear that if surgery is required for them to identify is a woman it is 'enforced castration'.

Sorry yet
I wasnt very clear. My question was more, in your opinion, how can we sort that out rather than saying we disagree.