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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not really understand why some people are so upset by transwomen using public toilets?

1009 replies

MyGastIsFlabbered · 16/11/2016 18:44

I'm sorry if this offends, but I really don't understand why this is such a contentious topic. I know transwomen and they just want to pop into a cubicle, do their business and leave. I understand that there is a fear of being attacked, but I honestly think if someone is of a mind to do that they'll do it whether dressed as a woman or not.

OP posts:
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VincentVL · 17/11/2016 09:21

*we almost need a Trans thread bingo, as they are always unrelentingly the same!

they have a PENIS, tick

then a link a few threads from 1989 showing that a serial killer wore dresses, not sure*

Hows a link from this week showing how yet another prominent trans activist has committed extreme violence against women, in this case murdering a lesbian couple and their son?

gendertrender.wordpress.com/2016/11/16/transgender-activist-dana-rivers-arrested-for-brutal-murder-of-lesbian-couple-and-their-son/

VincentVL · 17/11/2016 09:22

"it never happens"

VincentVL · 17/11/2016 09:22

"hormones make them like kittens"

NoSunNoMoon · 17/11/2016 09:23

"Media hysteria"

VincentVL · 17/11/2016 09:24

BULLSHIT.

Theyre delusional males with an obsession with females.

VincentVL · 17/11/2016 09:25

"its women who are the violent ones cos they called me He!"

FRETGNIKCUF · 17/11/2016 09:26

How have we reached the place where a few MTT's feelings and comfort trump women's feeling and comfort?

The whole thing screams ENTITLED MALES.

I, as a 5'2" woman and a mother of a ten year old NEVER want to see a TW in my space. I don't want my daughter to go to a public loo and wash her hands in a room on her own with a man, no matter whether he's wearing a dress with an annoying affected voice or not.

VincentVL · 17/11/2016 09:27

"the violent ones arent authentic trans! theyre cis men who pretend to be trans! even the ones who have made careers out of trans activism!"

FRETGNIKCUF · 17/11/2016 09:28

Regarding wees and poos....

All men I know take a lifetime in the toilet......

YetAnotherSpartacus · 17/11/2016 09:28

then a link a few threads from 1989 showing that a serial killer wore dresses, not sure

Whenever I see violence against women denied or trivialised, or women ridiculed or disbelieved for speaking about violence against women I know that we are far, far out of feminist territory and in the land of misogyny.

This is old misogyny too. The words and people might be new, but this is an old script.

It disgusts me in the name of all women who have been assaulted, raped, bashed, violated and murdered by men.

We will not be ridiculed into silence.

Ouriana · 17/11/2016 09:28

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FRETGNIKCUF · 17/11/2016 09:29

Dana Rivers is a trans woman.

stopfuckingshoutingatme · 17/11/2016 09:29

VincentVL

That's a horrific story. No flippant comments from me either way. just awful.

KateInKorea · 17/11/2016 09:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

JunosRevenge · 17/11/2016 09:31

I'm not at all bothered at the thought of a trans woman using the same public toilet as myself or my daughter.

BertrandRussell · 17/11/2016 09:33

"So the argument against having trans women in women's spaces is nothing to do with transphobia. It is a rational fear of sharing a space with someone much more likely to be violent than a natal woman."

This isn't actually my issue. I can see why some women feel that way and it's much easier to articulate that concern. Mine is more about what will happen next.

pklme · 17/11/2016 09:33

There was a term in child protection about shutting gates, that the more gates between predators and their victims, the safer it is. If you leave gates open (because no one in our group is a predator, so we don't need to worry) predators will find them.

Essentially, if you make it less clear about who can go in the women's toilets, then you make it less safe. Even a tiny bit less safe is a huge emotional trauma to those who are sensitive to it.

This is so emotive, and I think the only solution is for more individual toilets rather than group ones as we currently have.

averylongtimeago · 17/11/2016 09:34

As someone who has read a lot if these threads, but not really commented much, I would say I have found them very helpful in understanding this complex issue. Mumsnet is the only place where trans issues are discussed in any thing other than "look at this wonderful transperson" way.

I have no hidden agenda, and I really do not care what sex/gender you are or what you get up to in private with other consenting adults. Adults can call them selves what they like, dress as they like within the bounds of common decency and have the right to live free of violence, fear and discrimination.
However, one group of people's rights are not more important than another's and it is this that is causing a lot of this trouble, imo.

All this talk about toilets is missing the point. Trans people have been using which ever loo they feel comfortable in for ever. Sometimes you go in and you glance at the other person using the mirror and think hmmmm but it's not made into a problem. I don't think trans people are hanging around in the loos waiting to assault women either.

What does cause me concern is that it seems anyone can just say "I am a woman" , even if like Danielle Mosato they have a full beard and dress in male clothing, and then claim the right to be in female only places.
Our local swimming pool has a communal changing room, with few cubicles. I would not get changed there if men were present (even if they said they were a woman when challenged).
I prefer to see a female HCP for my smear test, some women would not go for a smear if they had to see a male, for religious, cultural or personal reasons (if they have been raped for example). Are my rights, and the rights of these other women, now to be ignored?
My elderly and incontinent MiL would have been horrified if any of they people helping her change her pads and clean her up were not female. Should her rights for dignity and respect be ignored?
Should my friend, who was raped and beaten lose the right to be examined by a female?
Should women in refuges many, like another of my friends, fleeing dreadful physical violence, loose the right to a safe female only space?

Please don't tell me I am over reacting about male violence. I know it is a small percentage of men, that all men are not "like that". However, every adult woman I know has been subject to some form of male aggression, or has a close friend or family member who has. If you cannot understand why this makes women unhappy to be in a vulnerable situation with a strange male then you must be completely lacking in empathy.

stopfuckingshoutingatme · 17/11/2016 09:35

Whenever I see violence against women denied or trivialised, or women ridiculed or disbelieved for speaking about violence against women I know that we are far, far out of feminist territory and in the land of misogyny

That's really upsetting to read. I have 2 sons I will raise them to respect women, and I support women's aid. I hate hate HATE violence against women and the menperpetuate it.

I also passionately disagree with men who suddenly identify as women and want to be moved into a women's jail, or use it to curtail justice, or impregnate women in Jail....

But it really s me that there is a view on here that means EVERY Trans-woman is tarred with the same brush, that's what I don't like.
To assume that every trans woman is a penis wielding rapist is a view that veers on prejudice for me- that's the nutshell

Manumission · 17/11/2016 09:39

To assume that every trans woman is a penis wielding rapist is a view that veers on prejudice for me- that's the nutshell

stop who has expressed such a view? Can you name a poster or posters?

BertrandRussell · 17/11/2016 09:39

"I'm not at all bothered at the thought of a trans woman using the same public toilet as myself or my daughter

Neither am I actually.

How would you feel about your frail, vulnerable 95 year old mother receiving intimate care from a nurse with a beard and moustache who identified as a woman? How would you feel if you had been raped and the person examining you to gather forensic evidence was the same nurse?

MxMarmite · 17/11/2016 09:40

Gosh, I had no idea quite how hung up (as it were) people are on the whole penis thing. It's all so muddled up, on so many levels.

I find it rather depressing that there is an assumption that those with penises somehow need to be kept away from those without penises in order to prevent the former attacking the latter. It is true, of course, that men are more likely to be sexual offenders than women, but the incidents of these offences happening in toilets, or changing rooms, or the like are very, very rare. Sexual assaults are far more likely to happen in the home, and to be committed by someone known to the victim (sadly, very often relatives.) It is possible that women fear violence in such places, but my fear of something doesn't give me an automatic pass to discriminate against those I fear, in circumstances where my fear is misplaced.

Race does actually work as an analogy. The best examples are the arguments used about black people in Jim Crow America. White people's of black people was used to keep them out of white waiting rooms, white toilets, white cafes, etc. And of course, occasionally crimes were committed by black people, and those crimes were used as an excuse to keep all black people away from all white people. But to do was statistically irrational and discriminatory... Something that thankfully civilised, right-thinking people now acknowledge. As I suspect, in due course, civilised, right-thinking people will acknowledge that the current hysteria over transwomen in women-only spaces is also misplaced, and a thin cover for simple discrimination and hatred of 'otherness.'

As a society, there is always a balance to be struck between many competing factors. We need to keep everyone in society as safe as we can, and we need to protect vulnerable groups, but at the same time we need to allow members of society to be as free as possible to do as they like. One person's freedom very often has an effect on another person's safety. If I am free to speak as I please, there is a chance I will offend someone. If I am free to drive my car, there is a chance I will hit someone. If I am free to walk the streets at night, there is a chance I will attack someone (clearly, there isn't. I won't. But no one else can know that with absolute, complete certainty.) If transwomen are allowed to use female spaces, there is a theoretical chance that this right may be abused by a predatory male pretending to be a transwoman. But there is a theoretical risk with every freedom. And how sad (and I would say, wrong) to allow that fear to stand in the way of the rights of the trans community to be protected and tolerated, by a welcoming, open and tolerant society.

A little more understanding and tolerance, and less hysteria regarding penises, would do us all some good, I think.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 17/11/2016 09:41

Please point to the comments where this "But it really s me that there is a view on here that means EVERY Trans-woman is tarred with the same brush, that's what I don't like. To assume that every trans woman is a penis wielding rapist is a view that veers on prejudice for me- that's the nutshell" has been said.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 17/11/2016 09:42

If you cannot understand why this makes women unhappy to be in a vulnerable situation with a strange male then you must be completely lacking in empathy.

This^ I would have thought that if MtT feel like women then they would have some sort of empathy. If MtT fell uncomfortable with males in some situations why on earth can't they understand why women also feel the same.

I think this was mentioned up thread but "nice" men go out of their way to not make women feel threatened, eg not walking close behind women etc

If MtT had empathy at all they would not be insisting on access to womens spaces as they would understand why that is inappropriate, they would be campaigning for their own spaces.

VincentVL · 17/11/2016 09:43

If males are allowed access to previously female only spaces then some proportion of women will lose access to those spaces. It doesnt matter what women's reasons are, ptsd, religious, cultural, sanity.. The fact is that all women need access to public toilets and changing rooms etc but in order to give access to some males (to validate their delusion they are female despite all evidence to the contrary) we are closing some women out.

It doesnt matter if you are happy for yourself and your daughters to share that space with a man. I and my daughters, other women and their daughters, and our mothers, will lose access to women's spaces if men are allowed in.

Those men have spaces they can access already. Men's facilities and unisex facilities. People are advocating essentially that some men should be given the choice of three different spaces while women are deprived of a single space. Why? Because they say that men might be mean to them in the mens room? Where is the evidence?

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