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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think that howling at people that they are racist is not...

590 replies

fidelineish · 23/04/2014 15:35

..the best way to challenge their thinking or change their views?

It crops up on here frequently and it is only going to become more frequent as UKIP campaigning steps up.

OP posts:
Removetheblinkers · 26/04/2014 11:44

Jin, I've managed to find the WW2 figures for the USA for you.

16 million soldiers served of which 1.2 million were black.

310979 were killed of which 708 were black, so 0.25% of total of American deaths.

I apologise if I was in any way offensive last night but I was trying to make a point with only a cursory google search. That point was so much has happened since slavery was abolished to shape modern society that while a relevant part of our past it shouldn't be a prevalent part of our future.

And on the subject of slaves, how many of you are aware of the Irish slave trade? They were actually cheaper to buy than African slaves!

TiggyKBE · 26/04/2014 11:45

In response to the OP,YANBU. You can't get bigots to change their mind. No point even trying. What you can do is argue with them in an attempt to win over any undecided people watching the argument: Make good points, let the bigot make stupid points, etc. Argue with one eye on the audience.

Apart from that, just make sure the bigots have a rough a time as possible. Get them banned by halls they try to hire for example.

sarinka · 26/04/2014 11:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Jinsei · 26/04/2014 11:53

I apologise if I was in any way offensive last night but I was trying to make a point with only a cursory google search.

Apology accepted. I hope you now realise that the world wars had a huge impact on people of all ethnic backgrounds. The effects continue to reverberate to this day, as do the effects of other historical events, including the slave trade.

Martorana · 26/04/2014 11:59

*"Jin, I've managed to find the WW2 figures for the USA for you.

16 million soldiers served of which 1.2 million were black.

310979 were killed of which 708 were black, so 0.25% of total of American deaths."*

What % of the American population was black in 1940? Your figures mean nothing without this information.

Jinsei · 26/04/2014 12:05

In any case, American deaths represent a tiny proportion of the overall total. The stats for the Soviet Union and China are staggering - and sickening. :(

Removetheblinkers · 26/04/2014 12:09

Mart, what's population got to do with it?

Martorana · 26/04/2014 12:20

Because you can't say "oh, only a tiny number of black Americans died in the war- look, only 708" and use this to support the bizarre assertion that only white people died in WW2, unless you know what % of the black population that represents.

Jinsei · 26/04/2014 12:27

In fairness to remove, I think she was talking about absolute numbers rather than proportional losses to the population. However, the absolute numbers reveal that a huge number of black and Asian people died in both wars, so her original assertion that only white people died was incorrect.

howrudeforme · 26/04/2014 12:42

Well, I reiterate my point that alot of this shite that is emerging is due to the recession. Go back to the 1990's when things were more buoyant and we're all saying ' I'm Ok so welcome to this country' when things get tough we're all pointing the finger at everyoneelse - and it's not just about racism it's about poverty and anyone who isn't like yourself.

Things are moving at such a rapid pace - it would be great if this country could somehow take a breather to assess where we are at and where we can be and then plan to get there. At the moment it's all rabble rousing and firefighting.

Removetheblinkers · 26/04/2014 13:06

Mart, as Jin says it's people killed rather than what percentage of a population they represent. It was, I admit, an ill informed statement but the point remains the same, it was predominantly white people killed and WW1 and WW2 has had more of an affect on modern society than slavery.

I'd like someone to comment on The Irish slave trade. It appears that those so vocal about racism are the ones most hung up on colour.

creighton · 26/04/2014 13:07

slavery still has an impact on how people are treated today. European whites and Africans think that they are better than/inevitably better educated than west Indians and act accordingly i.e. talking and treating them like dirt. as for the view that black people weren't impacted by the 2 world wars, this is indicative of the dismissal by whites of the work done by black people in any area of life.

it would have been good if the Europeans hadn't exported their war to other people and kept the whole murderous mess to themselves.

oh and my brother has complained to the imperial war museum in the past about the lack of recognition of black soldiers in Britain's war efforts.

Removetheblinkers · 26/04/2014 13:17

Creighton, I think you should rephrase that to SOME European whites and SOME Africans think they're better than West Indians. It's a very sweeping statement.

creighton · 26/04/2014 13:40

alright then, i'll rephrase it, most Europeans and most Africans....

Puzzledandpissedoff · 26/04/2014 13:55

Even allowing for some uncertainty, it's pretty clear that the victims of the two world wars were not exclusively white!

I totally agree and have never personally doubted it; it was simply the quoted figures I was querying. I guess it's just that since some posters have concentrated on black issues, there might have been a risk of the contribution of other non-white races being overlooked?

For me a life is a life and whatever the race, gender or anything else the loss of that life is equally terrible for their loved ones. I'm always reminded of a war memorial in France which had the dead listed by rank; the lower ones were round the back of the monolith, as if their sacrifice was somehow less. I thought that was absolutely terrible ...

xpatmama · 26/04/2014 15:12

Puzzled the reason we were discussing this was because remove said the deaths of non whites were I quote 'negligible' . Which was v offensive, she has retracted to some extent.

Remove, there were many awful slave trades with many impacts and the Irish have suffered a great deal. No one is denying that, bit of a straw man.

Also well illustrated by those post war English landlord signs 'no dogs, no blacks, no Irish.

Montegomongoose · 26/04/2014 15:46

remove I commented on it last night as I have both African and Irish/Scots slave ancestry. I also made the point that I didn't care about colour yet one poster insisted I must be white and, I must therefore assume, made that a facet of her judgement of my words.

To me that's racist.

However, I see we have moved on from the slavery debate. I hope, and with no pun intended, we can accept it is not a black and white argument.

I don't care what colour any of you are. I hope it doesn't matter to you either.

Removetheblinkers · 26/04/2014 15:48

Xpat, I have indeed apologised for the original wording but the point still stands.

Mentioning the Irish slave trade isn't a 'straw man'. The Irish as a race of people (Milesian race) were sold as slaves and treat abhorrently, the legacy of which still lives on today, especially in the United States.

Removetheblinkers · 26/04/2014 15:51

Monte, I agree entirely. To me racism is racism.

Jinsei · 26/04/2014 16:12

The Irish as a race of people (Milesian race) were sold as slaves and treat abhorrently, the legacy of which still lives on today, especially in the United States

I confess that I don't know a great deal about this, despite my Irish heritage. However, I'm curious that you are willing to acknowledge the legacy of Irish slavery, yet you seem to dismiss the legacy of black slavery. Confused

Removetheblinkers · 26/04/2014 16:33

Jin, I'll happily have a discussion about anything, but you're needlessly picking apart what I say to try and prove in some way I'm racist against black people!

Substitute Irish with black and you get what other posters have been saying all along. If so many of you have issues with slavery and racism that's ok, but please acknowledge the Irish too. Slavery wasn't exclusively black, and there is such a thing as racism against white people.

xpatmama · 26/04/2014 16:44

Remove you have consistently denied the legacy of black slavery on this thread! So I don't know why you have just landed on the Irish aspect, as I said, they have been consistently discriminated against.

Ironically you should also know that one of the major reasons that Ireland has done so well now are the large amounts of EU funding that went into building Ireland's infrastructure etc, under the solidarity funds. That is one of the principles of the eu to help build different eu countries, to ensure stability and equity - as well as grow different markets.

I mean I am well aware of the consequences of Irish slavery, the Icelandic people is one of them! Though here we are talking more about what went in on with the Vikings.

Martorana · 26/04/2014 16:48

What sort of dates are we talking about when we are discussing Irish slavery?

Removetheblinkers · 26/04/2014 17:02

My dear nemesis Xpat, you're obviously misunderstanding me so I will explain.....

We are today a legacy (yes, a legacy) of our past, starting with either the Big Bang or God creating us, whichever you believe. I don't deny that slavery of black AND white people has left it's legacy, but I do think that more recent events (like the WW's) has shaped modern society more.

My point with mentioning the Irish was that if certain posters are going to keep banging on about slavery being a very real and lasting racial legacy relevant today then accept that it's black AND white people that are affected.

Removetheblinkers · 26/04/2014 17:04

Martorana, enlighten yourself! www.globalresearch.ca/the-irish-slave-trade-the-forgotten-white-slaves/31076