to think that howling at people that they are racist is not...

[fidelineish]

..the best way to challenge their thinking or change their views?

It crops up on here frequently and it is only going to become more frequent as UKIP campaigning steps up.

So the other 1 million want to move on as well?
Good.

1 million should not hold back 69 million.
Or 1 hold back 69.999999 million should they.

Leaving aside the complicated history of global race relations for just a moment; do you all think racism in the UK is increasing or decreasing or static?

Well this could considered a loaded question, but personally speaking I would say in rl then it's pretty much what I have had throughout my life, so constant. However on the internet.... Yeah, I have seen pretty abhorrent stuff, but I have also seen a lot more cry of racism to stifle debate, so make of this comment as you will.

And for the record 99% of those who fought in WW1 and 2 were white, before the usual suspects start playing the race card.

I mentioned the FACT that it was white people that were slaughtered during the WW's because some of you can't seem to appreciate that slavery was abolished nigh on 100 years before that event but you still harp on that black people are rightly feeling injustice to this day about slavery.

You're making no sense. It's entirely possible for both slavery and the world wars to have had an impact on modern society. Your argument carries no logic.

As for your facts, nobody would deny that many white people died in the two world wars. However, it certainly isn't a fact that only white people died, and you were an idiot to try and claim this. But perhaps the many, many deaths of non-white people during the two wars did not seem significant to you?

The former :-) and no am not panicking. Am myself a migrant to another EU country in any case so just hope they are ignoring UKIPs ideas :-)

Once on a time I did a lot of reading about race and there's a v interesting book called 'white' or something like that. The premise is that White is just seen as the norm and other ethnicities are defined against it. This feeds into this whole white privilege. Of course we're talking about UK / US in particular.

If you don't believe this is true, that white is the unspoken assumption, try a little game. When speaking to friends about another white friend, try saying my white friend so and so, just like many people would say about black. Indian, Pakistani or whatever on a regular basis. It makes people really really uncomfortable. It's not just that they think it's weird, they feel very uncomfortable.

And for the record 99% of those who fought in WW1 and 2 were white, before the usual suspects start playing the race card.

Bullshit. And what fucking race card?!

Well this could considered a loaded question, but personally speaking I would say in rl then it's pretty much what I have had throughout my life, so constant. However on the internet.... Yeah, I have seen pretty abhorrent stuff, but I have also seen a lot more cry of racism to stifle debate, so make of this comment as you will.

It wasn't intended as loaded Just. I was only trying to ask how other people gauge the trend. Racism is still real and happening and needs tackling either way, of course.

Personally I agree with Jin's assessment;

My personal perception - and it's based on nothing more than a perception, no hard evidence - is that it's probably quite static, but that it is gradually becoming more socially acceptable to express it. I think the popularity of UKIP is fostering this, as well as a lot of islamophobic content in the tabloid press. It frightens me tbh.

But then I'm white (or more accurately am taken as being fully Anglo). So I wondered if that skewed my experiences and perception.

Remove since I'm trapped under sleeping children, I did an idle google to see if there were any figures on non white soldiers.

And here are some for WW1. www.blackpresence.co.uk/category/black-history/black-soldiers-black-history/

In WW1 India sent 1 million men over for the war effort. At that time that included Nepalese, Pakistanis etc of course and was a British colony.

In between making unsubstantiated claims to white victimhood, remove, can you answer my question that I rephrased for you?

Hi xpat, I was trying to avoid you from the other thread. When googling to find the initial figures I googled to see what ethnic minorities were involved and it was hard to pin down a number, but the overwhelming evidence suggested it was negligible to White people. Bearing in mind in the region of 70 million people were killed it's hard to get figures on the total of those that were actually fighting and not killed. So I'd say my guesstimate was reasonably accurate.

If you don't believe this is true, that white is the unspoken assumption, try a little game.

Oh I completely accept that there is still the cultural subconscious assumption of 'white' being the 'norm' just as I believe that 'male' is still the default 'norm', societally speaking (although I believe that is very slowly fading albeit the gender thing fading faster maybe).

I just keep thinking about a selection of the teens I know, with grandparents of various nationalities and ethnicities, but all Londoners, all with broadly working class grandparents and graduate parents and I think there is much more that they have in common (no inherited wealth, but clued up parents. No deep or influential social networks but good grades) and question the degree to which WP is going to be a defining issue for them in their lives.

You cannot ignore the fact that you (presuming you are white, I am mixed) may have been born with certain intangible advantages

You have presumed I am white.

I described my very complicated racial heritage. You have no idea what my advantages or otherwise may be, you know only that I live in Britain now and consider myself privileged to do so.

Please do me the courtesy of reading that post before you make further erroneous and irrelevant presumptions about my skin colour.

My skin colour is irrelevant. I mentioned my race in the context of conflicting feelings about slavery. I don't care what colour anyone's skin is, it is of no relevance to how I feel about them.

This white privedge is a red herring.

Still waiting for an an answer about the Romans and Saudis. Do they also have privilege?

Not unsubstantiated Tilly, accurate figures are hard to come by, all we know is around 70 million people were killed (not including civilians), if you can find the number of all those sent to fight you're a better googler than me.

Can you repeat your rephrased question as I haven't seen it! Sorry.

Then I think about the teens I know with wealthy families (of various ethnicities) and the (overlapping group of) teens whose families have been MC for generations (not as ethnically diverse) and THEIR advantage seems much more apparent and tangible and well just BIGGER.

But I am just thinking about teenage Londoners there.

Tilly, I've had a look and I think you missed my post where I asked you what a wheat based product was?

AmberLeaf, I honestly think that society today would be exactly the same if slavery hadn't existed and this bears no resemblance. It's people like you that won't move on, and people like you that holds back modern society with your endless quest to regurgitate history for what? I don't feel guilt for something I had no hand in, why do you?

You really are utterly clueless.

The problem with slavery is it involved black people whereas the world wars was just white people being slaughtered. And it appears white people don't count in the grand scheme of things, we're privileged after all

Have a read, you might learn something.

West indian soldiers in WW1

www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CC0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.caribbeanaircrew-ww2.com%2F&ei=sMBaU7PPLKes0QXTk4CoAQ&usg=AFQjCNH-hpyS4bjZzUToMr8BbHLDDyWIUw&sig2=i_YNSMVUCnX-NKYgmoRTRw&bvm=bv.65397613,d.d2k

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caribbean_Regiment

Amberleaf please tell me if I should hate the Italians? My birthday is coming up and I fancied gelato by a fountain

Also, do I hate the Saudis and Emiratis for their contemporary slavery?

It is you that is talking about hate, not me.

Jinsei;
I don't think amberleaf is suggesting that you should hate anyone. Acknowledging the impact of the past need not equate to hatred and bitterness

Thanks, yes exactly that.

No, Remove - she did answer. It was 'cracker' apparently.

Ha remove, I am allowed to go on two threads. I am only hoping that you are trying to avoid me because I was winning the arguments. Or maybe you're just bored, who knows.

More googling shows this: www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/colonies_colonials_01.shtml

I have to admit that I find your reference to the world wars puzzling because there are enormous racial implications following them...of all kinds, and Europe was formed as a direct result to never allow it to happen again. Meanwhile there are still major implications from slavery, one being the enormous populations of black people in the Americas...and discriminatory legislation that was only repealed relatively recently.

Most of these major historical events have long shadows.

Remove, your ignorance is astounding! And offensive.

Please go and do some proper research about the victims of the two world wars. You will find that the number of non-white deaths most certainly was not negligible. Stop bullshitting and admit that you got it wrong.

AmberLeaf, I don't need to read up on how black people served in the wars, I've answered that already.

I'm sorry that black people were persecuted in the past, I'm glad slavery was abolished 181 years ago. What more can I say? The year is now 2014 and life goes on. How would you like to appease the situation? Can the privileged white actually appease the situation?

I know people who migrated to the UK very recently who are extremely proud to take British citizenship. What about people who have both slave owning and enslaved ancestors (plenty of them) are they supposed to exist in a constant state of tormented duality?

I'm one of the many of these sort of people. One parent from one side of the track married to a parent from the other side of the track. No issues at all. Dad was not apologetic (he was not involved - not his generation - he was not into geneology etc) - mum was a product of that history but was not attacking because she though of my father as an indivual.

Our sort of multiculturalism (of the old sort we had here) was about inviduals and not groups. that's long gone now.

I've seen more racist shit towards my white father from my non white family. Far more. But more recently (last decade and increasing) my mum is getting more racist abuse and I'm finding this very worrying.

However, I do think that where racism holds power it's much worse as it affects life chances and, yes, I've always felt that the balance of power is the hands of whites, but to say that british white people can never experience that kind of racism is crap. I've seen it - we do have powerful non white citizens too. Are they immune from negatively affecting the life chances of people who are not of their race/ethnicity?

Happens everywhere and this freaking recession is brining out the arsehole in alot of people.

Yes jinsei, some cursory googling shows that the non white dead from both WWs must have been over 1 million.

Jin, find the numbers because I sure as shit can't. I know that it was predominantly white people that were killed, and if it turns out it was 98% then I apologise.

Howrudeforme hello! I don't think people should be tormented and I certainly agree that racism is alive and well amongst many groups of people, certainly not limited to white people.

But I do think that the consequences of slavery should be at least understood and recognised rather than brushed under the carpet since it was 'such a long time ago'. Many people don't seem to recognise the consequences at all.

Eg why so many Afro Caribbean immigrants to the UK? Well firstly they were slave traded to the Caribbean, it was a UK colony, the uk then called for immigrants to work in the UK.... Etcetc meanwhile these immigrants suffered enormous racism when they arrived...

Howrudeforme, your opinion matters more to me than others on here. Thanks for sharing!

Fidelineish, WTF has a cracker got to do with anything? I'm going to have to read back a few pages....