to think that howling at people that they are racist is not...

[fidelineish]

..the best way to challenge their thinking or change their views?

It crops up on here frequently and it is only going to become more frequent as UKIP campaigning steps up.

Have a look at wiki

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#Human_losses_by_country

The cracker is confusing me too.

Happens everywhere and this freaking recession is brining out the arsehole in alot of people.

Very true. If it is manifesting as more racism it is sadly no great surprise.

remove - I don't really care if my opinion matters to you.

it's not really my opinion but rather my observations growing up in the UK in a very multiculural family. My multicultural family.

very proud of my family and not because of their national/ethnic backgrounds but rather because of their thinking that was more about the indivual and less about the mass groupings. That's why we get along with lots of people without feeling the need to spout about our 'multicultural' credentials lol. It's not interesting. It's not new - just what we all grew up with and our parents as well.

Remove - I do add my observations here but did you skirt over where I said that that I've always felt (even as a young girl and I'm now pushing 50) that racism has more far reaching consequences where power is involved? That can be political and that can be economic. And that means that in the world its the white minority who call the shots. But that doesn't take away from the fact that ANYONE can be racist and if they have the inclincation and the clout to do so they can.

I just keep thinking about a selection of the teens I know, with grandparents of various nationalities and ethnicities, but all Londoners, all with broadly working class grandparents and graduate parents and I think there is much more that they have in common (no inherited wealth, but clued up parents. No deep or influential social networks but good grades) and question the degree to which WP is going to be a defining issue for them in their lives

How it will be a defining issue for them, is in how they are perceived on sight depending on whether they are black or white.

I could tell you many anecdotes about how my hardworking, good grade attaining, polite and well mannered black sons are treated in many areas of life, based on how society views black males.

Being followed around shops by security guards and staff members.

Being disproportionately stopped and searched, for no reason.

Reporting a crime, then when the police arrive, the assumption being made that they were the perpetrator not the victim.

People pulling their handbags close to them as they walk past.

People getting up and moving somewhere else on the bus.

Many of my friends with black sons report the same, none of my friends with white sons experience this.

Ah wait I think I've got my figures confused. But never mind. They are generally extremely horrifying reading. I've had enough of them... I'd forgotten about the millions of civilian deaths in Asia.

My white teenage daughter gets a LOT of the handbag and security guard nonsense too Amber (I've watched open mouthed and complained about security guards etc and, in the course of that, seen the security guards exhibit blatant racism too) but I take your overall point, particularly about the stop and search, police etc.

Maybe I get too optimistic about the progress London has made and will make. The alternative vision that I sometimes have is chilling and I try to push it down.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties

Figures for WWI. Read the notes below the table as well to get an accurate picture.

Cracker = whip cracker. slave driver. Derogatory term for white people.

I think class certainly has an impact too, sadly. But that's just another layer.

As an Asian male, my DH gets stopped at every possible security check. It never happens to my white BIL.

Sorry- was trying to suggest hopefully there that once your boys are older things might get a little better for them, but I didn't express it clearly and it's probably blind optimism anyway

Howrudeforme, I didn't skirt over what you said and I didn't feel compelled to reply per se because I had no issue. I wanted to acknowledge your opinion is, to me, more valued than others on here because of your position. If you don't care then that's fine, I haven't taken offence.

I appreciate you feel that whites hold the power growing up in a predominantly white country and that's understandable. Do you feel the colour of your skin has held you back? And do you feel any animosity towards white people because of the slave trade?

As an Asian male, my DH gets stopped at every possible security check. It never happens to my white BIL.

That's something we should be able to put a stop to, as a society. Quotas, altered policies or whatever. It would make a difference. Set the tone.

It would have to be a positive thing to crack down on all the measurable instances of favour or bias. Shop security guards too maybe.

I guess we're resigned to it now. I used to feel shocked, but I've got used to it. :(

Maybe I get too optimistic about the progress London has made and will make

Most of what I posted about happened in London. Racism is more overt out of London though, ie direct racist name calling, shouting out in the street and being chased while being threatened with violence, people actually stopping and staring as we walk by etc. That is one of the reasons I will always live in London. Everywhere else [small towns/villages-not other major cities with diverse populations] is just too racist and it isn't safe for my family.

But what my family experiences even in London, is institutionalised and entrenched racism. A lot of the time, that kind of racism is perpetuated by people who don't even know they are doing it, that is why it is so important to acknowledge and accept the ongoing effects of slavery/colonialisation and the system it built.

remove , have you read the links I posted?

AmberLeaf, I wouldn't be offended to be called a cracker, the word has no meaning for me.

I hope you don't mind me asking but you say your sons are black, are you black or white?

But what my family experiences even in London, is institutionalised and entrenched racism.

I'm sure. The idea that the Met, in particular, is no longer racist is laughable.

Jin, I'd prefer if you gave me numbers to either correlate or disprove my earlier guesstimating.

Sorry- was trying to suggest hopefully there that once your boys are older things might get a little better for them, but I didn't express it clearly and it's probably blind optimism anyway

Their Father is 42, my Brother is 44 and it still happens to them now.

Remove - I don't look asian at all - more iranian. But growing up through punk, mods, skins in a white area made me see it all including the view of my various ethnic family members. From MY perspective. My perspective only. I could write a book on my thoughts and it would piss everyone off.

Racism is racism - it's nasty - in many cases it DOES CAUSE HUGE DAMAGE TO LIFE EXPECTATIONS. Particularly where the perpetrators hold power. I'm afraid that does mean the white majority in the majority of cases. Along with racism there is a wide variety of other nasty attitudes.

Do doubt we need a discussion on immigration in view of non expansion of vital services to complement it, and then robust action, but UKIP has nothing positive to contribute to it. It really doesn't.

I don't think that the UK is in a place to discuss how best to balance its books in relation to immigration given the recession and our current govt's lead on dividing our society. I'm horrified at the headlines and rhetoric.

Do you think once your sons' generation are their age it will be better Amber?

Everywhere else [small towns/villages-not other major cities with diverse populations] is just too racist and it isn't safe for my family.

You've ascertained that every non-Londoner in this country poses a racist threat to you?

I'm not white and I don't live in London and I refuse to be paralysed by paranoia. Nor would I presume to make sweeping generalisations about great swathes of my fellow citizens.

I've received shitty treatment from white people and non-white. I put it down to their character and upbringing, not their skin colour.

I'm rather shocked by what you said. To write off all those potential friends because they are a different colour.

AmberLeaf, I wouldn't be offended to be called a cracker, the word has no meaning for me

It wouldn't have much of an impact on you either really. It is more of an american term though, so unlikely you would here it here.

I hope you don't mind me asking but you say your sons are black, are you black or white?

Don't mind at all.

I am white, my children are black and I grew up in a mixed race family.

The numbers are all in the links,remove, I'm not going to type them all out. The stats aren't separated by ethnicity, just by country, but the numbers are more than enough to demonstrate that your earlier "guesstimating" was bullshit.

If you can't be arsed to look, then I guess you just don't want to know. If you choose to remain ignorant, that's your call.