Ed Sheeran/Macklemore

[WallyHilloughby]

what are your thoughts on this whole debacle?
quite frankly I’m sick and tired of artists using concerts etc as some political forum

Anything that highlights the atrocities in Palestine and brings the needless suffering of children at the hands of our ally back into mainstream conversations is a good thing.

Musicians have always dabbled with humanitarian causes. Big Geldof certainly didn’t get this reaction for abandoning Aid.

The only reason this is any different is because Israel thinks it has the right to silence the truth of human suffering they are causing.

I have never once seen anyone talking about any other war or genocide, or criticising any other state’s actions against a minority, being asked why they are not talking about different countries.

This tactic is used with Israel and Israel alone.

Well you can't be looking very hard, that sort of whataboutery is extremely common across all discussions on the internet.

I mean, look at this thread - 'why are you talking about Macklemore and not talking about Kraft'?

And I’d be interested to know whether the people claiming we should be talking about other wars or genocides and not Israel and criticising other state’s actions against a minority and not Israel’s are themselves talking about other countries, or are they confining themselves to talking about Israel?

I thought my post was fairly clear. I’m talking about wars/genocides/mistreatment of minorities in countries not any issue people might be disagreeing about.

And yet, if that tactic is used in any issue that people are disagreeing about, why are you supposing that it is only used about Israel when people are arguing on the internet about wars?

That would seem to be a rather naive assumption.

It is used about Israel because it is a tactic used by supporters of Israel to accuse anyone criticising Israel of being an antisemite which is what posters on this thread are so subtly doing.

Why don’t people do it about other countries? Because they don’t have that tactic available to them.

At present Israel/Gaza is very much in the news and very much happening now and being where it is and how sacred the land is, other (UK, US and so on) countries being involved it will get spoken about more that is understandable

But there are many atrocities happening around the world that other countries are also involved in in some way

The question is why has so much anti semitism been allowed to infiltrate this movement to speak out against the Israeli governent and why when people are using a highly public platform to call out governments on their actions of cruelty because seeing so many innocent people are sufferoing does their empathy only appear to be with Palestinians (who absolutely desrve our empathy)

I went on a few marches when the war started (and not my first), the open and vile antisemitism on the marches made me question wtf was I doing there, how can I be part of this and it was so open. So little to no empathy for the people of Israel who have suffered

We absolutely should not ignore the anti semitism that has crept in and now is so loud and open in regard to Israel/Gaza/West Bank but surely empathy should never be one sided if it is that needs to be questioned and I am glad more people are starting to

“Why aren’t you talking about x instead” is, as you have admitted, a widely used tactic.

Disproportionately focusing on Israel, above and beyond the scrutiny other countries can be antisemitism. See the IHRC definition of antisemitism. It doesn’t take a lot of thought to realise why antisemites might be obsessed with Israel.

It’s also why, when you find someone has made a point of focusing on the evils of Israel in their performances and you find that in the past they dressed up as a hugely offensive antisemitic caricature, that it shouldn’t be ignored as a possibility.

Exactly

People seem to forget that Macklemore showed us all exactly who he was sometime ago now his statements are just a little less direct

People can still see it just many are choosing not to because it is in line with some (and maybe) of their opinions

I agree with a lot of what you say. In my view neither pretending there is no antisemitism in any critics or opponents of Israel or pretending that all criticism of Israel stems from antisemitism are honest or helpful approaches.

I would say that on the threads I have read on MN I have seen a lot of sympathy for Israelis who have suffered (such as on October 7) from critics of the Israeli government.

Music is very often political. It is one of the many aspects the makes it so meaningful to humans.

It is also good to understand where artists stand on various issues. It does influence what I actively listen to (I'd never ever listen to Sheeran or Macklemore based on music alone).

I guess it is effective in keeping some level of visibility on the horrors inflicted by Israel with killing of 10's of thousands of women and children, the ehtnic cleansing on the west bank, etc. But these are already well known and understood, so it does not add anything new.

Same as the posts on Iran, Hamas, Russia, etc. We know these people and the evil they do.

It's silly to think this music/concert nonsene will influence Israel though, nor would it for Russia, Iran or other terrorist states.

I have seen so many posts claiming that it was Israel, not Hamas who killed all those people at the music festival, that the hostages were actually being really well treated (ignoring the dead ones I guess and ignoring that taking people hostage certainly isn’t good treatment), that the reports of rapes and sexual assaults were lies and didn’t happen, that Hamas are heroic freedom fighters (resistance!), that Israel deserved it and so on and so on.

Have you also seen those posts?

Do you mean the IHRA definition?

Yes, the one that says a disproportionate focus on Israel can be antisemitic.

I haven’t, no, but I haven’t been reading MN posts on this issue for long. I imagine anyone calling Hamas “heroic freedom fighters” or saying that Israel deserved it would be deleted and presumably banned pretty quickly, so maybe those posters aren’t on MN anymore.

I have been reading threads on MN for a few months and as I say, on the threads I’ve read a great deal of sympathy for the victims of that terrible massacre has been expressed by critics of Israel. The posts you have seen does not negate this.

As I said in my response to HRTQueen, I don’t think either extreme of “there is no antisemitism amongst critics of Israel” and “all critics of Israel are antisemites” is true or helpful.

I have seen posts about the fact that Netanyahu had a credible warning of an imminent attack and chose not to share this information with his security chiefs, and discussion of the use of the Hannibal Directive by the IDF on October 7. I think these are legitimate subjects for discussion and that raising them is not denying or excusing the atrocities committed by Hamas.

The IHRA definition of antisemitism is not universally accepted. The British Medical Association, for example, have recently voted to reject it, exactly for the reason that they believe it stifles raising legitimate concerns about the Israeli state’s treatment of Palestinians.

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk/bma-votes-to-scrap-international-definition-of-antisemitism-across-nhs-in-shock-move-ung1q2wm

Ah, I am starting to get the measure of why you are commenting on the lovely, sympathetic to Israel comments you’ve seen in the CIME section.

Opinion is generally that CIME is not lovely, or sympathetic to Israelis. More that it is a grim binfire and best avoided, particularly if you are Jewish.

So if there was a disproportionate focus on Israel, you can't imagine that there could be any racist, prejudiced or anti-semitic motive for that? Don't you find it odd that universities, political parties, actors, musicians focus almost entirely on this conflict? Why is it that Israel/Gaza is constantly in the news and people's TikTok feeds, but not the terrible treatment of women in Afghanistan or the ongoing crisis in Yemen? Is it not even slightly suspect that the UN human rights council has a standing item on Israel and not any other country? Not Iran, China, Saudi Arabia?

You can't trust the BMA on anything. As with all unions it is entirely run by activists. They are literally doctors who believe trans women are women.

I have been thinking of this a bit, and while I don't like musicians or artists of any kind using events as a platform for political views, it happens all the time. How many Golden globe or Oscars speeches have had a US pro Democrats view, or a blatantly anti Republican view. Some focus on specific issues like abortion rights or LGBT rights, where a different perspective isnt offered. They never get cancelled for this, it's often met with a bit of eye rolling and that's it. Many, many people have openly supported Ukraine and it's been interpreted as that literally, they are supporting Ukraine. No one accuses them of being anti Russian or racist against Russian people. Supporting one thing doesn't automatically mean hating another. There is also a ridiculous double standard regarding religion. I am Catholic and it's always open season on the Catholic church, and quite rightly given the history. But I don't take it as a personal racist insult to me, i certainly don't think it should be banned (although I do find it tiresome). I don't think its right that people are allowed criticise my culture but I dare not criticise theirs. I don't think its right that we have to listen to some people say they support one thing and be told we cannot listen to people say they support another thing. This IMO isn't about the conflict in question it's about who gets to decide what we are and are not allowed say. I find it very troubling and for that reason am against this cancellation.

He probably didn't want the weirdo bigot Macklemore. However, I'd have more respect for him if he'd had the gumption to say so outright.

In this world of social media wearing the wrong cardigan can have loons screaming for you to be cancelled.

Shouldn't we be talking about the ugly truth of what Muslims are up to in Europe?