The invasion continues - Thread No.4

[ChimChimeny]

Following the previous (2? 3?) Threads

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4492641-The-Invasion-Has-Stalled

@BigHuff

BBC reported an hour or so ago that Germany had dispatched four warships to the baltic sea - these are now being joined by planes. Hmm.

I wondered about that, forgot to post at the time. Is this normal, or are they foreseeing any reason why they should be there?

I have just read the stories about children dying. So heart breaking.

@BeyondPurpleTulips

Three :)

Thanks for the new thread.

I have a(nother...) question. Why do people on Twitter (many, many people) keep asking NATO to "close the skies" over Ukraine. The skies are already "closed", surely (ie military and aid aircraft only)?

Because they don’t understand that NATO can only act when a NATO member is attacked. Ukraine is not a member of NATO. If NATO breaks the rules they can hardly expect Russia to stick to the rules.

Volvo estates: loved by 80s antiques dealers because you could lie a whole wardrobe flat in the boot with the seats down. I daresay you could sleep in it too. Indestructible too.
Totally off topic, but my entire family slept in the back of a C reg Volvo for several weeks (Mum, Dad, baby sister and 6 year old me!). They really are huge!

Back to topic. I'm sure this has probably been covered, but how accurate do people think the estimates on deaths are? I've seen death tolls for Russian soldiers quoted between 3.5 and 4 thousand. How is this possible? Where and how are Ukraine killing that many while not losing more than a few hundred (civilian deaths quoted, I haven't seen numbers mentiones for Ukrainian military) themselves?

@BigHuff

BBC reported an hour or so ago that Germany had dispatched four warships to the baltic sea - these are now being joined by planes. Hmm.

Can anyone give any insight into why that might be happening?

Currently an RAF typhoon going over 600mph to the South East of Ukraine,proper giving it beans.
Hopefully sound of that is causing a bit of twitchy bums for the Russians

Great thread but I do wonder at some of the very black and white statements.

Two things.
Just Google Zelensky and Pandora papers. He came to power as the anti corruption saviour but seems to have been guilty of the same practices.

Secondly . More and more reports of racist and hate filled behaviour from some Ukrainians and Polish people towards non white students fleeing the fighting.

www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/28/nigeria-condemns-treatment-africans-trying-to-flee-ukraine-government-poland-discrimination

Thank you for this thread - it's all really interesting.

What I am having trouble understanding is why Russia have to agree to Ukraine joining NATO and /or the EU and dictating that they can't have nuclear weapons (when Russia seems to have enough to nuke the entire planet). I though Ukraine was an independent country with it's own Government?

I mean, I know Putin doesn't see it that way, but I can't comprehend how he thinks he can dictate what international organisations Ukraine are part of. Please can someone explain?

And why have Europe and NATO allowed him to get away with all the shit he's done over the last few years? Surely letting him do what he likes has made him more dangerous?

www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2019/01/23/german-navy-returns-to-treating-the-baltic-sea-as-a-potential-theater-of-war/

This might be of interest as to the warships being sent to the Baltic Sea.. from 2019

www.reuters.com/world/europe/germany-sends-tornado-warplanes-maritime-patrol-aircraft-baltic-sea-area-2022-02-28/

Confirmation of the warships and warplanes being sent today but no further info.

@covetingthepreciousthings

Can anyone give any insight into why that might be happening?

No, not really. I could speculate that perhaps something is mobilising in Kaliningrad, or that intelligence agencies have information about a threat to europe from the north - but this is totally baseless speculation.

The longer this is going on the more worried I feel. It just such a complex situation with many agendas on all sides. Just hoping that reason will prevail but feeling desperately sad for all the people who are hurt, kill or displaced.

@Queenoftheduvan

Currently an RAF typhoon going over 600mph to the South East of Ukraine,proper giving it beans. Hopefully sound of that is causing a bit of twitchy bums for the Russians

Is this from flight radar ?

Can the RAF even land in Ukraine right now ?

No they won’t even risk entering airspace I wouldn’t have thought. Same idea as boots on the ground

And why have Europe and NATO allowed him to get away with all the shit he's done over the last few years? Surely letting him do what he likes has made him more dangerous?

Ask Alexander Litvinenkos wife? Marina - she has been calling for tougher action on Russia since they murdered her husband, in London with a nuclear poison, we did nothing and she says it due to Russian money in politics.
Though he was murdered in 2006, we didn't know how he died for many years.
Every time she went to Govt, they d do nothing because of who the Russians were bank rolling.

She has given interviews on this and the Russian invasion recently, very informative.

Ceramic I saw that on twitter re racism!
Yes talks of corruption around the president.

However, right now he's exonerating himself unlike the Afghanistan president and staying with his people.

Only Mumsnet could have a mostly brilliant informative thread running on a serious topic with a deep seam about Volvo cars

@Queenoftheduvan doesn't the Typhoon go over double that speed ? under the sound barrier so no big bang ?

Heartening to see on one of the links posted just how many big hitters are speaking out in Russia!!

There is a no war trending on their FB, they are writing letters... speaking out.

[quote BigHuff]@covetingthepreciousthings

Can anyone give any insight into why that might be happening?

No, not really. I could speculate that perhaps something is mobilising in Kaliningrad, or that intelligence agencies have information about a threat to europe from the north - but this is totally baseless speculation.[/quote]
They'd have to fly any additional troops in though surely, but are banned from Lithuanian and Polish airspace?

@Queenoftheduvan and @Roundeartheratchriatmas - The Typhoon seems to be flying very close to the border with the Ukraine, it briefly got up to 785mph which will have caused a sonic boom, I wonder if this is to try to spook them?

Perhaps to get intel on what's happening in the south and Crimea. As long the ship stays in Turkeys waters or the international waters, it's long range intel can view what's going on.

US drones have been flying over so perhaps Germany as part of a NATO response have decided to take over capturing intel.

I guess the German Navy are just doing your normal nothing to see here perfectly legitimate messing about on the water type exercises ?

Unless they were actually planning on walking/driving in to Lithuania/Poland? But that would be beyond stupid. In the event of any actual invasion of the Baltics, surely it would be from the "motherland"?

@TheSillyMastiff

Perhaps to get intel on what's happening in the south and Crimea. As long the ship stays in Turkeys waters or the international waters, it's long range intel can view what's going on.

US drones have been flying over so perhaps Germany as part of a NATO response have decided to take over capturing intel.

Sorry just noted which sea it is on. Ignore me. Thought you said black sea 🤦🏻‍♀️

@ceramicheart

Great thread but I do wonder at some of the very black and white statements.

Two things.
Just Google Zelensky and Pandora papers. He came to power as the anti corruption saviour but seems to have been guilty of the same practices.

Secondly . More and more reports of racist and hate filled behaviour from some Ukrainians and Polish people towards non white students fleeing the fighting.

www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/28/nigeria-condemns-treatment-africans-trying-to-flee-ukraine-government-poland-discrimination

It must be very scary being a young student in a foreign country that is suddenly at war. I imagine that the vast majority of the foreign students will not speak much/any Ukranian, which makes the situation more difficult. The stories of intimidation/border guards being obstructive are obviously upsetting. I will admit, I have slightly less sympathy for the fit young people with homes to go back to who are complaining about a 5 hour wait at the border, or for those who have been told they have to leave Poland within 15 days. Many of those leaving Ukraine are leaving behind homes and loved ones, perhaps forever. Many will not know where they are going. They will also have been queuing for hours.