The invasion has begun

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Russia has begun it's invasion of Ukraine. Who knows where this will end.

apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-europe-russia-moscow-kyiv-626a8c5ec22217bacb24ece60fac4fe1

Putin has, to my knowledge, always been a big supporter of the Church there

Well fuck me what kind of God would be supporting this action?!

We don't have to get involved, do we?

We pretty much do, yes, or he won't stop at Ukraine.

Ukraine gave up its nukes on promises from UK, USA and Russia that it would be territorially protected.

If Ukraine is not defended, every country will know that only nukes will protect sovereignty and the non-proliferation treaty will be dust in the wind. Hot, radioactive dust.

I feel like there's lots of Russian astro-turfers on MN today.

Maybe if West had not seen Russia as a threat and not done the things that aggravated him we wouldn’t be here

No. Russia is a threat and has been for ages. Everything they’ve been doing recently (poisoning their own, poisoning in our country) has been testing the water. We did nothing except the smallest sanctions of a couple ‘diplomats.’ What have we done to aggravate Russia pray tell?

I do love all the indignant responses about Ukraine being kept out of NATO and that what Ukraine wants should matter most. Like the US would just sit idly by if Canada decided to go full communist or Mexico formed an alliance with Russia. They wouldn't give a shiny shit about what the people wanted. Let's not pretend the West is so much better, a huge number of the world's problems have been created hy the USA undermining other countries for their own interests.

@Mollysocks

Maybe if West had not seen Russia as a threat and not done the things that aggravated him we wouldn’t be here

No. Russia is a threat and has been for ages. Everything they’ve been doing recently (poisoning their own, poisoning in our country) has been testing the water. We did nothing except the smallest sanctions of a couple ‘diplomats.’ What have we done to aggravate Russia pray tell?

Read his speech it goes very far back and gives his reasons

It’s a good way to get understanding of why

@MephistophelesApprentice

I feel like there's lots of Russian astro-turfers on MN today.

Which posts?

Can you give an example

I work with a woman who lives in eastern Ukraine with her family - I'm so worried for her. Her boy just had his 6th birthday. Those poor people

I really don't care about the politics of it all. All I care about is the innocent civilians who are being attacked.

@eithermore Yes, we do have to get involved. It's the rest of the world's job to stand up to a bully. If everyone just stands by and lets this happen, he won't stop at Ukraine.

@MephistophelesApprentice

I feel like there's lots of Russian astro-turfers on MN today.

I feel you are absolutely right. Is there a blocking function on here?

@eithermore

If you think Europe and the UK and even the US do not need to get involved then you know nothing about this, do you?

Do you know what it will mean if Russia takes Ukraine? What that will mean to the other former societ states which Putin will target next. What it means when Putin has a larger border with the rest of Europe (Ukraine is very big). Control of that airspace.

The safety and security of all of Europe is threatened. The sovereignty of all former soviet states is threatened.

We are a nato member. NATO's mission statement is to contain Russian aggression. That is why it was formed and that is what it must do.

Ukraine is not in nato but it is an enhanced partner. Ukraine have sent their troops to join nato troops in nati conflicts. Ukraine have shown dedication and commitment to nato and that enhanced partnership.

If you dont know anything about it, go and find out.

[quote Bellalastrasse]@GallopingHighRoad
I also think (and it is interesting that Putin made the link between the history of Russian Orthodox Christianity across Ukraine and Russia) that the Pussy Riot girls were being led by something or someone - it didn’t seem authentic in some way. Dancing in an Orthodox Church was such a provocative act - who benefitted from that?

Putin has, to my knowledge, always been a big supporter of the Church there - a church that is part of the larger Eastern schism - I think that he views that as more significant and we don’t realise this.[/quote]
Yes I agree. He is deeply religious and combines that with a historical war and bloodshed narrative.

This is one of the reasons why I think Russia has a greater cultural tie with Europe than it does with say China. In the fullness of time, I believe Russia will regard Putin as a brake on their evolution and a squanderer of both their natural resources and their brilliant people. But today, if you are Russian what information do you have?

Mephistopheles

Yes, that's sort of got lost hasn't it in all the drama. They agreed to give up weapons... for protection!!

@MephistophelesApprentice

I feel like there's lots of Russian astro-turfers on MN today.

Yes, I have noticed this on a few threads this week. They are quite obvious about it too.

Personally, I cannot see anything short of NATO bolstering its presence in the Baltic states, Poland, Romania and possibly Bulgaria in coming weeks or even days. A carefully crafted narrative will be essential against that, but it is the only credible move I can see possible to de-risk the situation further.

Read his speech it goes very far back and gives his reasons

I don’t care what his reasons for invading Ukraine are. You’re talking like he ‘has a point ya know’ he’s a mad man, he’s insane, he orders his own people to be poisoned or to be pushed out a window if they go against him. I don’t care what he thinks NATO or Ukraine should or should not be doing. He doesn’t get a say.

Firstly it shows how selfish and weak people people have become in our soft and easy society where people are more interested in looking for ways to be professionally offended and to turn away from a country that is being hijacked - yet would be the very first people to phone the police in lockdown if some one broke the rules.

Secondly - Putin, is not a nice guy, he already has a hit list of gay people that are about to be murdered. This is going to a dreadful time for the Ukrainians. This is not going to end well and it may well be the start of WW3

Thank god Ben Wallace eventually shown his face as frankly Lizz Truss was embarrassing in Russia.

This is the time the grown ups need to step out of the shadows and take over because I'm bloody worried with the current lot on both sides.

@MephistophelesApprentice

I feel like there's lots of Russian astro-turfers on MN today.

I get the same feeling. You can spot them a mile off. The formula is this:

1. Sympathise with Putin

1. Then say something that makes you sound like you're not on the side of the Russians, such as "what are WE (i.e. I'm a Westerner, too) going to do about this?"

1. Say something derogatory about the British Government

There was text missing of my post

It should have started off with - I wish people would stop saying 'we don't have to get involved'

To be fair, you don’t need to be peddling Russian propaganda to find something to cover point 3 😕

@Mollysocks

Read his speech it goes very far back and gives his reasons

I don’t care what his reasons for invading Ukraine are. You’re talking like he ‘has a point ya know’ he’s a mad man, he’s insane, he orders his own people to be poisoned or to be pushed out a window if they go against him. I don’t care what he thinks NATO or Ukraine should or should not be doing. He doesn’t get a say.

ok don’t then it wasn’t an instruction

I found it an interesting insight into why. Not everyone will obviously but anyone tacking this will need to know the motivations.

I don't think people offering a different view or being pacosift should be cast into the Russia bot pile..