The invasion has begun

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Russia has begun it's invasion of Ukraine. Who knows where this will end.

apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-europe-russia-moscow-kyiv-626a8c5ec22217bacb24ece60fac4fe1

@Mollysocks But it’s really important to understand what he’s telling the Russian people/Russian allies. We do need to understand his reasons - both the real reasons and the reasons he is admitting to.

It’s so trite to just say - “he’s a madman/he’s insane”. What does that do other than minimise his statesmanship and underestimate him? We need to proceed on the basis that he is a dangerous, powerful and persuasive leader.

Choca I think I get what / who you mean

I'm not sure if it is Russian astro-turfers. I have seen a few posts on my facebook today from people I went to school with. You will always get that one dickhead who like to play devils advocate and be 'edgy' with 'alternative view'

@Cocomarine

To be fair, you don’t need to be peddling Russian propaganda to find something to cover point 3 😕

True that.

I wouldn't suspect anyone of being a Russian bot simply for criticising the British government. It's the people empathising with Putin who give themselves away.

Just need to add that I do not support Russias actions at all and my heart goes out to the Ukrainian People and the innocent Russians who will get caught up in this. This world is fucked.

[quote Itsalmostanaccessory]@eithermore

If you think Europe and the UK and even the US do not need to get involved then you know nothing about this, do you?

Do you know what it will mean if Russia takes Ukraine? What that will mean to the other former societ states which Putin will target next. What it means when Putin has a larger border with the rest of Europe (Ukraine is very big). Control of that airspace.

The safety and security of all of Europe is threatened. The sovereignty of all former soviet states is threatened.

We are a nato member. NATO's mission statement is to contain Russian aggression. That is why it was formed and that is what it must do.

Ukraine is not in nato but it is an enhanced partner. Ukraine have sent their troops to join nato troops in nati conflicts. Ukraine have shown dedication and commitment to nato and that enhanced partnership.

If you dont know anything about it, go and find out.[/quote]
Thank you, I don't know much at all about this and am suffering from anxiety since Covid. I guess I can't enter that space of horrible fear yet again when I haven't quite gotten over the last 2 years of fear and stress. I don't want to imagine that we get involved in what must then lead to a horrible dangers conflict.

What is the likelihood of a diplomatic solution at this point.

@MephistophelesApprentice

I feel like there's lots of Russian astro-turfers on MN today.

So strange with the bot farms and people falling for these things.

I’ve just watched RT, the Russian TV out of the U.K. so strange the bias and all Russians believing this? He practically did air quotes of the “Russian invasion” and said it wasn’t them that started it.

I have read the translation of Putin's speech.

I'm astonished anyone would believe a word that comes out of Putin's mouth. He may suggest X is his reason but to take it at face value is ridiculous. He's simply creating a narrative.

It isn't long ago he said he wouldn't invade.

Jewish families in eastern Ukraine were already being directed westwards to refugee centres over the past couple of days, possibly then onto Israel. Around 30,000 Jews migrated to Israel after the Russian invasion of Crimea in 2014. This still leaves over 360,000 Jews in Ukraine who are very vulnerable to Putin's insanity.

@Tigersonvaseline

Mephistopheles

Yes, that's sort of got lost hasn't it in all the drama. They agreed to give up weapons... for protection!!

Quite right! I'd forgotten about that .

We will do what we must to protect democracy and freedom because it’s not only the right thing to do but it’s the only thing to do.

War is probably now inevitable. Unfortunately that decision was taken out of our hands. That is a frightening prospect but what is the alternative?

What if France suddenly invaded us and claimed the UK wasn’t a real country and we were all actually French? London started being bombed and communications with the world were cut? We would be screaming for someone to come and help us. How would we feel if no one came because they were scared of war and it’s implications? UK doesn’t matter, it’s not part of the EU, it’s a long way away, We don’t want war.

We sat back when Hitler started this almost 100 years ago. First it was just the Sudetenland and then suddenly it wasn’t. We can’t ignore this because we think it’s not our problem - it is our problem.

Russia is very very big and that’s frightening but that is no excuse for us to wash our hands of this. Putin thinks he can do this because no one has the balls to stop him.

@SpinningTheSeedsOfLove

Jewish families in eastern Ukraine were already being directed westwards to refugee centres over the past couple of days, possibly then onto Israel. Around 30,000 Jews migrated to Israel after the Russian invasion of Crimea in 2014. This still leaves over 360,000 Jews in Ukraine who are very vulnerable to Putin's insanity.

I am surprised you feel Jews are going to be targetted by Putin. What is your reason for this?

@GallopingHighRoad Russia is historically extremely anti-Semitic. Not a good place for Jews.

Putin is not anti-Semitic. Many of the oligarchs have Jewish family connections. Things were very different in previous eras.

@Notonthestairs

I have read the translation of Putin's speech.

I'm astonished anyone would believe a word that comes out of Putin's mouth. He may suggest X is his reason but to take it at face value is ridiculous. He's simply creating a narrative.

It isn't long ago he said he wouldn't invade.

What are his reasons in your mind?

I don’t think it’s ridiculous to get more information and build a picture but you do it your way (with scoffing) if it helps.

@SpinningTheSeedsOfLove

Jewish families in eastern Ukraine were already being directed westwards to refugee centres over the past couple of days, possibly then onto Israel. Around 30,000 Jews migrated to Israel after the Russian invasion of Crimea in 2014. This still leaves over 360,000 Jews in Ukraine who are very vulnerable to Putin's insanity.

I'm very glad this has been thought of and the evacuation started, but oh dear god that this is needed.

@GallopingHighRoad

Putin is not anti-Semitic. Many of the oligarchs have Jewish family connections. Things were very different in previous eras.

He’s just denoted the Ukrainian Leader (who is Jewish) a Nazi.

He has in the past been accused (if not proven) of faking anti Semitic attacks on Jews to try and rally Jewish support to the Cremlin.

All Russians who are pro this invasion will view every Jew they encounter to be pro Zelenskiy. That is Putin’s doing, he is a man who chooses words very carefully.

Can someone explain or clarify things for me?

Cummings had strong Russian links.

He seemed to be protected by Boris at one point.

Then something went wrong - Cummings was out.

Cummings starts his own campaign to (rightly imo) get Boris out of power.

Meanwhile Putin......

I can't seem to shake the idea that somehow they are all linked. I have worries about where loyalties lie and how that will affect us as much as the actual war.

@Roundeartheratchriatmas

They’re bombing Kyiv.

We really just going to stand by and watch Ukraine fall aren’t we ?

And what exactly can we do about it? Do you have any suggestions?

@Chocaholic9 You accused me of this, MN looked into it and deleted your post.

I ve been on MN for many years and hate, with a passion, Putin and Boris Johnson/Farage who are/were his stooges, the useful idiots who have diminished the UK.

The UK Govt has to be criticised because it has taken Russian money, given Russian Putin supporters uk citizenship and made London one of the worlds "best" countries for money laundering.

Or do you believe that only your opinion matters and people like me can be sent to the Gulag

@Dontbeamugallyourlifesucker

Awful! British sanctions must be harsher!

You think British sanctions will change anything?

If any of you are watching BBC News, the Ukrainian they had on about ten minutes ago made the most crucial point as to why we, the US and the EU must intervene on their behalf.

Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons on the basis of our word, that we would help them if something like this happened. This wouldn’t be happening (probably) if Ukraine still had their nuclear weapons. We must not abandon them.

@smorgasbords

If any of you are watching BBC News, the Ukrainian they had on about ten minutes ago made the most crucial point as to why we, the US and the EU must intervene on their behalf.

Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons on the basis of our word, that we would help them if something like this happened. This wouldn’t be happening (probably) if Ukraine still had their nuclear weapons. We must not abandon them.

What do you think should happen?

If we send people in what would come next - General this morning talking about WW3

@smorgasbords

If any of you are watching BBC News, the Ukrainian they had on about ten minutes ago made the most crucial point as to why we, the US and the EU must intervene on their behalf.

Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons on the basis of our word, that we would help them if something like this happened. This wouldn’t be happening (probably) if Ukraine still had their nuclear weapons. We must not abandon them.

This

@Photolass us personally on mumsnet not much.

The government and NATO a lot.
Sanctions?
Declaration of war?
Sending troops?
Trade restrictions?
Closure of borders from Russia?

More than express sympathy.