Or is this victim blaming?

Just to begin, I consider myself a feminist, advocate for women’s rights (of course!) etc etc.

but I struggle with the line when it comes to victim blaming in some cases of rape and sexual assault.

In recent years, we’ve seen a rise in cases regarding women (often drunkenly) going back to hotel rooms and being raped once there. I fully support the conviction in such cases and have sympathy for the women.

However, I just don’t understand why some women put themselves in such dangerous situations? It’s a shame we have to think this way (ie. Be ‘on guard’ and cautious of men/rape/sexual assault), but it’s clear that something like this could happen if going to a hotel room with a man you do not know very well. So why do it?
I compare this to walking alone in the dark - we should be able to do this as women! But unfortunately, the vast majority of women wouldn’t do this due to the perceived danger. Yet why is pointing out the danger of going to a hotel room of a man you do not know considered victim blaming?

I don't see it as victim-blaming, either, OP. If someone has been the victim of a crime, of course they should have justice, and any blame goes to the criminal alone. People don't 'deserve' to be victims because they weren't somehow 'vigilant enough'. But it doesn't change the fact that certain behaviours and choices will sometimes increase the risk of someone becoming a victim. That's not to say that anyone can always avoid becoming a victim, even if they make 'perfect' choices every time, but we can definitely increase the chance of it happening to us.

I'm not smug about making choices that I hope will keep me safer, because I know I could still find myself in a horrible situation someday, but I don't see the sense in denying that there are things I can do to protect myself and decrease the amount of risk in my life.

But it isn’t just luck.
The MO of rapists like brand, mcgregor, footballers etc. is to flirt with women a bit and to then get said women to accompany them to hotel rooms, toilet cubicles, private areas etc. The only women who are being raped here are the ones that are accompanying these men to private areas despite not being up for sex.

I’m talking about a specific type of rape which seems to have seen a rise in recent years.

Being in a situation where a man has the opportunity to choose whether to commit violence against you is not the same as accepting a risk of accidental harm.

But they aren't higher risks. Most women aren't raped by strangers in dark alleys.

Most women are raped by men they know and sometimes love. The higher risk is to allow men in your circle, in your bed but the vast majority of women take that risk yet it isn't seen that way.

The alternative is acknowledging the fact that men are going to rape and they will always find a way to rape. It can't be prevented. Women should continue their lives as is because making changes isn't going to make a difference in reality, especially when those changes are largely regarding the most unlikely rapes to happen in stranger rapes.

Im furious that there is a need for the sign. The fury should be directed at the rapist, not the victim.

I understand where the pushback against victim blaming comes from but I think it’s gone too far to the other side where increasingly comment strips women of all agency and any degree of responsibility for their own safety. Some of the cases I read just have me baffled as to how somebody could completely throw away their agency in that manner.

I think it is the infantilisation and fragilisation of women and thats toxic as hell IMO.
Assuming women are victims with no agency is patronising and such an awful message to send young girls. What a world we live in where women are told they are inherently vulnerable with no agency. Even with good intention I think thats a horrible thing to teach our daughters.

Did you go to court and listen to the defence lawyers. They really do everything they can to blame you.

I know, I've been in that position myself. My case was years ago and I was made to feel dirty for walking home alone with a jumper that didn't cover my shoulders. Disgusting. The shitty man got a fine.

I hope that things are better at police forces and probably some they are but definately some aren't. Seems some police men rape vulnerable women and also kill them - some high profile cases recently.

I am still quite baffled that so many women don't even walk alone to the Tube in Central London without a phalanx of bodyguards. Or take a taxi alone.

How on earth do you manage to work and live in the real world?

The OP isnt talking about those cases.

There is a lot of online chatter painting London as being an incredibly dangerous place when, especially compared to American cities, it isn't really. I feel quite comfortable walking around it on my own. Including in the dark which is a good thing because it gets dark ridiculously early on winter

But it is just a fact that when a woman is murdered/assaulted the fact she was walking alone in the dark is brought up. It happened to Sarah Everard where the police initially implied it was because she was walking through a "rough" area and advised other women not to. The fact this was during COVID when it was harder to move around without walking was ignored, as is the fact that not walking "after dark" during winter would give women a few hours of daylight to be freely outside. And then of course it turns out that Sarah was murdered by a police officer who used his authority to get her into the car.

So if you are out after dark (after 3.30 in winter) and you accept a man's offer of a walk home/a place to stay for the night and he attacks you people will find a way to blame you. If you don't and walk home alone and are attacked you will also be blamed apparently. It is what makes fake innocent posts along the lines of "why do women do this" foolish. If course women could stay safer by never venturing out at night, never drinking in the vicinity of men, never being alone with a man who isn't their father. But then men would complain (and do) about male loneliness and female suspicion.

Yes..There's a thread right now with a poster panicking about visiting London and going to the West End! Something I do twice a month. There's a PP upthread likening London to Mogadishu.

But this level of fear is just ensuring that our streets are male. Which will mean more rapes and assaults. Encouraging women to hide in their houses unless they have a male protector is Talibanisation.

Yes, they would. This has been proven in war time, over and over again, where "normal" men rape the women that they capture. I thought everyone knew about this?

World War I: 1914 German invasion of Belgium (the "Rape of Belgium") and during the Ottoman Empire's Armenian Genocide, where women were subjected to systematic sexual violence and trafficking.
World War II: Sexual violence occurred on a massive scale across multiple fronts:
The Imperial Japanese Army: sexual slavery known as "comfort stations," forcing an estimated 50,000 to 200,000 Asian women (primarily Korean and Chinese) into military brothels. 1937 Nanking Massacre, where 20,000 to 80,000 women were raped.
Soviet Red Army: Eastern Europe in 1944–1945, two million German women were raped.
The German Wehrmacht and SS: Committed widespread sexual violence in occupied Soviet and Eastern European territories, often combined with forced prostitution in military-run brothels.
Western Allied Forces: documented cases of rape by American, British, and French troops occurred in liberated European territories and occupied Japan.
Modern Conflicts: In late 20th-century and 21st-century conflicts, sexual violence has frequently been documented as a formal strategy of war or ethnic cleansing:
1971 Bangladesh Liberation War: An estimated 200,000 to 400,000 Bengali women were systematically raped by the Pakistani military.
1990s Bosnian War: Between 20,000 and 50,000 women (primarily Bosnian Muslims) were subjected to targeted mass rape by paramilitary and military forces.
1994 Rwandan Genocide: An estimated 250,000 to 500,000 Tutsi women were raped during the genocide.

It's easy to say Not My Nigel, but in reality, it has been shown, time and time again, that men rape given half the chance.

Right but then it's also important to push back against victim blaming. Women should feel able to be in London by themselves. Women should also be able to enjoy a night out and even (shock horror) have a drink or two without worrying about their drink being spiked or a man taking advantage of their innebriated state to "escort" then back to his hotel room and assault them. And without people then saying "what were they doing to make themselves so vulnerable 🤔"

Unfortunately we don't live in a world like that. And I am sure you don't mean it like that but commentd about women "taking agency" are often used as a form of victim blaming. Of course women have agency. But when a woman (or a man) is raped that involves a deliberate removal/violation of their agency by the rapists. Its the denial of their agency that makes it a crime

I thought everything I said was pushing back against victim blaming. I may have lost the thread of this argument. It's a long thread!

Various surveys been done. In 1 a third of men said they would force a woman to have sex if they knew they'd get away with it (a lower percentage 14% said they would rape a woman) another survey found 95% of young men would use manipulation, verbal pressure and persistence to get sex with 65% saying they'd force it if needed (term rape not used). We need to get away from telling women how to protect themselves and start teaching boys from a younger age and much more strongly than we do now exactly what rape is.

The issue isn't what women do or wear or where they go it's that men grow up in a world which teaches them that women aren't proper humans so our no, our resistance don't matter. We can advise women till we are blue in the face but still rapists will rape. I bet my ex husband doesn't view himself as a rapist but he is, bet he just believes he had sex with his then wife in their marital bed, however coerced sex, sex had while being threatened, sex while your wife is crying and shaking in fear is rape.

While I believe everyone should watch out for themselves and their friends both male and female while we keep giving advice to women on how to keep themselves safe from rape we are taking the responsibility and the message away from men which is where it belongs.

No it won't sort things out overnight but give it time and it should start making a difference.

Did you know this about your husband before you married? Are you still with him?

she says ex and I'm guessing the rape victim is her.

@Chickpeacurrywithrice @Glowingup

To save any confusion yes I was the wife he treated like that. We were young and it's a long time ago, so far back that marital rape had only just been made illegal but still wasn't taken seriously.