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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Or is this victim blaming?

511 replies

Feedingmybaby · Today 11:26

Just to begin, I consider myself a feminist, advocate for women’s rights (of course!) etc etc.

but I struggle with the line when it comes to victim blaming in some cases of rape and sexual assault.

In recent years, we’ve seen a rise in cases regarding women (often drunkenly) going back to hotel rooms and being raped once there. I fully support the conviction in such cases and have sympathy for the women.

However, I just don’t understand why some women put themselves in such dangerous situations? It’s a shame we have to think this way (ie. Be ‘on guard’ and cautious of men/rape/sexual assault), but it’s clear that something like this could happen if going to a hotel room with a man you do not know very well. So why do it?
I compare this to walking alone in the dark - we should be able to do this as women! But unfortunately, the vast majority of women wouldn’t do this due to the perceived danger. Yet why is pointing out the danger of going to a hotel room of a man you do not know considered victim blaming?

OP posts:
Chickpeacurrywithrice · Today 17:27

Feedingmybaby · Today 17:19

I wouldn’t say it’s quite that straightforward.

If your 15 year old daughter came downstairs with an incredibly short skirt, would you not advise her that it’s too short and to go and change it?

I think it’s awful that women have to even think of taking these precautions but ultimately, I believe the girl in the longer skirt would be of a lower risk of catcalling to the woman in the short skirt. And knowing that my daughter would be horrified at being catcalled, I would advise to wear the longer skirt. I don’t think that women are responsible for men’s abhorrent behaviour, but that there are ways to reduce the level of attention if that’s what is wanted.

So you agree with the analogy that women should remain covered from head to toe?

SouthLondonMum22 · Today 17:28

nietzscheanvibe · Today 17:19

But none of that equates to saying "there's a risk inherent in taking a man you barely know back to your hotel room" = "victim-blaming" which was, I think, the OP's initial point.

Being around any man at all is a risk.

dairydebris · Today 17:28

OsfameronTanamoril · Today 17:17

I have no idea what you are trying to say. Seems like quibbling over semantics.

Ok. It seems really important to me to draw a distinction between personal responsibility and blame.
We don't have to agree of course. Have a nice evening 😊

ThreadGuardDog · Today 17:28

Dutch1e · Today 17:14

How is it excellent? Are men at the wheel of a 2 tonne speeding penis hurtling down a road you step into? And no matter how they try to swerve, they just couldn't avoid cramming it up your hole?

I agree - running someone over, one would hope is an accident. Rape is never that, it’s a deliberate act of violence and the analogy simply doesn’t work.

I do have to say your own version is nearer the mark - not to mention rib achingly funny !!

nietzscheanvibe · Today 17:30

SouthLondonMum22 · Today 17:28

Being around any man at all is a risk.

But some situations are inherently more risky than others, and acknowledging that isn't victim-blaming in my opinion.

SouthLondonMum22 · Today 17:33

nietzscheanvibe · Today 17:30

But some situations are inherently more risky than others, and acknowledging that isn't victim-blaming in my opinion.

Stranger rape is rare. Living with a man you know is statistically more risky than walking alone at night when it comes to the risk of rape.

Feedingmybaby · Today 17:35

Chickpeacurrywithrice · Today 17:27

So you agree with the analogy that women should remain covered from head to toe?

No I don’t.

OP posts:
Feedingmybaby · Today 17:36

PinkArt · Today 17:25

Fucking hell. It's depressing enough seeing this scummy kind of commentary from asshole men on twitter, but an apparent woman on mumsnet??
OP obviously your revolting views are victim blaming. You even got as far as well if she will go out dressed like that... Not to mention the suggestion that there is some sort of rape hierachy and stranger rape victims were asking for it more than women raped by people they know.
What is MOST interesting and depressing is the timing of this though. Some of Russell Brand's victims finally got justice yesterday. David Walliams finally stopped being able to injunct himself away from justice today. And today of all days THIS is what you chose to write on the subject of rape. Not how heinous those men are, or how brave their victims were, not what men can do to be better, no what you chose to add to the discourse was is it really victim blaming if I say I know rape is wrong but..... YES, yes it is victim blaming and it is shameful.

If that’s what you’ve taken from my posts then you clearly lack reading comprehension.

OP posts:
Dogsceptic · Today 17:39

As always, people are piling on with the ‘straw man’ argument.
Yes people get raised by boyfriends/husbands. DV /report it.
Yes people get raped by random strangers in the street - lots recently tho’ they tend not to get media coverage /report it.
The ‘grey’ area is where starstruck people, who by their own admission put their tongue in the anus of a complete stranger, whilst their best friend at the same time gives that man oral sex, pay to go to another of his gigs shortly afterwards, and then 20 years later accuse him of rape.

PeasOff · Today 17:40

Dogsceptic · Today 17:15

This

Because it's really easy to remove your vagina so someone assumes you don't have one🤦🏼‍♀️

SouthLondonMum22 · Today 17:41

Dogsceptic · Today 17:39

As always, people are piling on with the ‘straw man’ argument.
Yes people get raised by boyfriends/husbands. DV /report it.
Yes people get raped by random strangers in the street - lots recently tho’ they tend not to get media coverage /report it.
The ‘grey’ area is where starstruck people, who by their own admission put their tongue in the anus of a complete stranger, whilst their best friend at the same time gives that man oral sex, pay to go to another of his gigs shortly afterwards, and then 20 years later accuse him of rape.

Edited

Consenting once (or 5 times or 50000 times) doesn't mean that a woman always has to consent.

Pinkflamingo10 · Today 17:44

You have a point OP.
I would never say that it’s the woman’s fault because she went back to the man’s hotel room. It is the fault of the rapist.
but personally I would never go to a man’s hotel room, back in my partying days even if I kissed someone on a night out I would never go back to their house or hotel room.

Feedingmybaby · Today 17:45

SouthLondonMum22 · Today 17:41

Consenting once (or 5 times or 50000 times) doesn't mean that a woman always has to consent.

It definitely doesn’t. But if she didn’t want to consent, why not just stay at home? He obviously didn’t want to know her for her amazing personality. She shouldn’t have to have stayed at home - she should be able to parade naked all around his house without him expecting sex in an ideal world. But obviously he was going to expect sex judging by their previous encounter, so why even go?

I don’t think she’s to blame at all - the rapist is always to blame. But the level of risk there was just insane!

OP posts:
WhereAreTheTrueGreens · Today 17:45

Dogsceptic · Today 17:07

Excellent analogy.

Is it though.

People assume that walknig home alone makes a women more likely to be raped. However, the majority of rapes are not carried out by strangers but by men known to the victim.

PeasOff · Today 17:46

Dogsceptic · Today 17:39

As always, people are piling on with the ‘straw man’ argument.
Yes people get raised by boyfriends/husbands. DV /report it.
Yes people get raped by random strangers in the street - lots recently tho’ they tend not to get media coverage /report it.
The ‘grey’ area is where starstruck people, who by their own admission put their tongue in the anus of a complete stranger, whilst their best friend at the same time gives that man oral sex, pay to go to another of his gigs shortly afterwards, and then 20 years later accuse him of rape.

Edited

I take it this is about RB. Someone can consent to one sex act and say no to another making it rape if the person continues. That's how consent works.

This again, is victim blaming.

ThreadGuardDog · Today 17:46

Feedingmybaby · Today 17:36

If that’s what you’ve taken from my posts then you clearly lack reading comprehension.

Well if that’s the case the PP isn’t alone. There are a number of posters, including myself who find your views offensive, as are your comments around the reading comprehension of those who are calling you out.

ThreadGuardDog · Today 17:48

Dogsceptic · Today 17:39

As always, people are piling on with the ‘straw man’ argument.
Yes people get raised by boyfriends/husbands. DV /report it.
Yes people get raped by random strangers in the street - lots recently tho’ they tend not to get media coverage /report it.
The ‘grey’ area is where starstruck people, who by their own admission put their tongue in the anus of a complete stranger, whilst their best friend at the same time gives that man oral sex, pay to go to another of his gigs shortly afterwards, and then 20 years later accuse him of rape.

Edited

Doesn’t matter if it’s forty years later. It doesn’t make him any less of a scumbag and it doesn’t make it any less the case that she didn’t consent. She didn’t consent to anal sex and she didn’t consent to him removing the condom. Which by itself is treated as rape.

nietzscheanvibe · Today 17:48

SouthLondonMum22 · Today 17:33

Stranger rape is rare. Living with a man you know is statistically more risky than walking alone at night when it comes to the risk of rape.

I don't dispute any of that, but it doesn't address my statement that "acknowledging risk" isn't "victim-blaming" 🤷‍♂️

PeasOff · Today 17:49

Feedingmybaby · Today 17:45

It definitely doesn’t. But if she didn’t want to consent, why not just stay at home? He obviously didn’t want to know her for her amazing personality. She shouldn’t have to have stayed at home - she should be able to parade naked all around his house without him expecting sex in an ideal world. But obviously he was going to expect sex judging by their previous encounter, so why even go?

I don’t think she’s to blame at all - the rapist is always to blame. But the level of risk there was just insane!

I'm pretty sure this woman was brutally anally raped which must have been horrifically painful and traumatic.

Do you think that was her expectation?

More victim blaming - you are putting the onus in her actions and not his. It's vile.

PinkArt · Today 17:51

Feedingmybaby · Today 17:36

If that’s what you’ve taken from my posts then you clearly lack reading comprehension.

No, I'm not. You've made it very clear what your awful views are. It's one of the most unpleasant sets of posts I've read on here and at times that's a crowded field.
You clearly aren't going to take on board anything anyone says, so all anyone can do is hope that other women reading this thread, who recognise themselves in your descriptions, take some comfort in knowing not everyone thinks like you. You might think 'those women' chose to put themselves in danger by doing that or wearing that but thankfully there are more of us who understand that the only person whose actions are responsible for rape is the rapist.

ThreadGuardDog · Today 17:52

PeasOff · Today 17:40

Because it's really easy to remove your vagina so someone assumes you don't have one🤦🏼‍♀️

I suspect if you replace the word ‘vulnerable’ with ‘available’ you’ll be nearer the mark as to what this poster really thinks.

SouthLondonMum22 · Today 17:52

Feedingmybaby · Today 17:45

It definitely doesn’t. But if she didn’t want to consent, why not just stay at home? He obviously didn’t want to know her for her amazing personality. She shouldn’t have to have stayed at home - she should be able to parade naked all around his house without him expecting sex in an ideal world. But obviously he was going to expect sex judging by their previous encounter, so why even go?

I don’t think she’s to blame at all - the rapist is always to blame. But the level of risk there was just insane!

If you truly don't think she's to blame, there'd be no 'buts'. I imagine she wasn't completely against having sex and then either changed her mind or didn't want to do exactly what he wanted to do and obviously didn't expect him to do what he did.

I also don't know which is which but I believe one of his victims consented to sex but not anal sex and he did it anyway.

WhereAreTheTrueGreens · Today 17:53

PinkArt · Today 17:25

Fucking hell. It's depressing enough seeing this scummy kind of commentary from asshole men on twitter, but an apparent woman on mumsnet??
OP obviously your revolting views are victim blaming. You even got as far as well if she will go out dressed like that... Not to mention the suggestion that there is some sort of rape hierachy and stranger rape victims were asking for it more than women raped by people they know.
What is MOST interesting and depressing is the timing of this though. Some of Russell Brand's victims finally got justice yesterday. David Walliams finally stopped being able to injunct himself away from justice today. And today of all days THIS is what you chose to write on the subject of rape. Not how heinous those men are, or how brave their victims were, not what men can do to be better, no what you chose to add to the discourse was is it really victim blaming if I say I know rape is wrong but..... YES, yes it is victim blaming and it is shameful.

Yep. Bloody awful choice of what OP decides to write. Not poor victims or support for them, their bravery or any compassion but a scum thread of blaming the victim for putting themselves in this position. A if you did that then this wouldn't happen thread.

OP completely ignores that most women are raped by men they know, not strangers. What do facts matter when you can throw stones at other women who in the OP's opinion make themselves less safe and so might be raped. Nice one @Feedingmybaby punch down at the victims and ignore the actual people who deserve widespread condemnation the actual rapist. Sit there on your high horse and ponder. You have no idea what sexual assault or rape is like without the pathetic comments from women wo make excuses for rapists and enable others to think well they made themselves unsafe because of x y and z so it's ultimately their own fault.

I pity you and your lack of empathy. Never ever work with women who have been victims, they deserve better than your comments. Rapes are mainly done by people known to the victim not strangers in an alleyway by the way,

PeasOff · Today 17:53

ThreadGuardDog · Today 17:52

I suspect if you replace the word ‘vulnerable’ with ‘available’ you’ll be nearer the mark as to what this poster really thinks.

I suspect you're right...

Chickpeacurrywithrice · Today 17:55

Feedingmybaby · Today 17:45

It definitely doesn’t. But if she didn’t want to consent, why not just stay at home? He obviously didn’t want to know her for her amazing personality. She shouldn’t have to have stayed at home - she should be able to parade naked all around his house without him expecting sex in an ideal world. But obviously he was going to expect sex judging by their previous encounter, so why even go?

I don’t think she’s to blame at all - the rapist is always to blame. But the level of risk there was just insane!

You very clearly do think she’s to blame, is so bloody obvious!

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