Or is this victim blaming?

Agree.
IF the only rapes that ever occurred where of the stranger, dark alley, knife-wielding type then logically the way to avoid it would be to never go out without a chaperone or two.
Though of course we still wouldn't blame the victim, just like we wouldn't blame somebody for being mugged.

That is not the only type of rape that occurs, though. It happens in a wide range of circumstances.

The only way to be safe from rape is to NEVER meet any men.

I suppose you could go and live on a female only commune, even then you may be attacked by a gang of men.

Sure, and women who are banned from any public space unless accompanied by a male relative are probably safest of all from being raped by a stranger. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here - it seems like we're saying the same thing, we just disagree.

It's nothing like looking both ways before crossing the street.

Two tonnes of steel hurtling through space is an innate and undeniable risk. It's simple physics.

Your implication then is that men are innately, scientifically, driven to rape.

Yes OP. It’s victim blaming. And no, you’re not a feminist.

Ridiculous. And wrong.

I would never walk alone around London late at night.

Cities are not safe to walk around late at night due to the number of thugs and degenerates who freely roam the streets. Culture and society has completely broken down in Britain, and men no longer display the masculine qualities they would have done years ago.

That's your prerogative.

I feel perfectly safe walking alone at night in Central London. Far safer than I feel in a rural village. Been doing it for years and never met any thugs or degenerates.

I think there's a difference in the conversations we would have with someone who has suffered an assault, and with our daughters when telling them to stay safe.

"Stay with your friends, get a taxi home, keep to brightly lit streets, don't think a man is any safer to be around because he's got long hair and a blouse on" etc is all good advice and we would be doing girls a disservice to not tell them these things. But that doesn't mean there's ever any excuse for assault, even if they broke all those rules.

I was responding to a poster who said it was straightforward and we simply needed to teach men not to harm women. I don’t think it is at all straightforward, I think men know they shouldn’t harm women, and I think it’s a fantasy that we can eradicate rape.

I am all for education, and my hope is that it is effective, but I will still be advising my daughter in the reasonable steps she can take to mitigate risk whilst assuring her that if anything were ever to happen, it would not be her fault.

Your university experience sounds wildly different to mine - our SU’s banned the song “blurred lines” from being played for example. There were certainly no discussions about whether women saying no should be confusing to men.

”Enthusiastic consent” is a great principle for promoting healthy sexual relationships but as far as I know it isn’t the legal test and someone can consent to sex without saying yes and without being particularly enthusiastic about it.

Of course there are precautions women can take to reduce risk, but the problem is that the narrative always comes back to what the woman should or shouldn't have done.

She should have dressed differently, drunk less, not walked alone, not gone back to his hotel room. Also the suggestion that women simply shouldn't walk alone at night is ridiculous. What about women who work shifts, finish work late, have no family nearby, or rely on public transport? Are they supposed to put their lives on hold because it's dark?!

At what point do we stop making women responsible for managing the risk of male violence? Even with a woman following all of the precautions I've listed - still not enough to keep her completely safe from the risk of rape. What does that tell you...?

What masculine qualities?

Blame lies only where there is wrongdoing.

Personal responsibility is only the responsibility for one's own actions.

Therefore, when a rape takes place, there is personal responsibility on both sides, the rapist is personally responsible for the rape. The person who was raped was still responsible for being in the situation. It sounds awful to say, but yes, we are responsible for where we are, if we ourselves were there of our own free will.

The blame lies only where there is wrongdoing. The rape is the wrongdoing. So 100% of the blame is there.

Wearing a short skirt is not wrong.
Being drunk is not wrong.
Taking part in risky behavior is not wrong.
Staying in a relationship with someone you love who is displaying red flags isn't wrong, although probably ill advised, youre not doing anything wrong.
Hence no blame here.

We have control of our own personal responsibilities. I think we should allow that.

We don't have control of other peoples personal responsibilities. And we certainly don't take blame for their wrongdoing.

This way we have control with no victim blaming.

Where have I gone wrong?

you are increaseing your chances of being raped by 100% if you go to a hotel room with a man you only just met.

Are you? Where do you get this conviction from?

Respect, kindness, thoughtfulness, compassion, and listening more than speaking.

Years ago, there were far more of these people in the UK, which is why it was safer to walk the streets.

Nowadays, we have delinquents and yobs, obsessed with physical strength, who no longer display these masculine qualities. In addition, there has been a breakdown in cultural values of people being king to one another. This is why our cities are no longer safe for men or women to walk alone at night.

I'm a bit confused by this comment, it feels it starts one way then ends somewhere else.

So, when my sister was asleep in bed and her partner raped her, it was her fault for being asleep in her own bed and putting herself in that situatuon? It was her fault for choosing a bad partner? Is that correct? Sorry I am genuinely trying to understand if this would be in line with the logic of your comment, or if I've misunderstood.

That's completely bonkers. I would never walk alone in London, or any other major city, at night.

I was brought up not to. Either get a taxi, or be with a crowd of people. That's the rule.

But why would people take fewer risks with their property than they do with themselves is the point I'm making?

I hate this rhetoric around women keeping themselves safe and avoiding risky behaviours. I think it undeniably harms our ability as a society to conceptualise consent and rape/sexual assault. Women CANNOT keep themselves safe from sexual assault and rape. This illusion fuels the belief in a victim hierarchy - there are legitimate/perfect victims, and those that are not. I see you refuse to engage with any discussion about rape/sexual assault committed by people known to the victim. OF COURSE! Even though you are fully aware it is far more common than the situation you describe you don’t have any handy little hints and tips for keeping women and girls safe in these contexts because there aren’t any.

So what restrictions are we willing to accept for women and girls in the name of common sense? When is it “safe” to be alone with a man? What about a world in which a woman goes to a hotel room with a man, decides she doesn’t want to have sex, and he says that’s fine, I’ll make you a tea, let’s go to sleep. The risk profile of what she has done hasn’t changed, just the fact that she wasn’t with a rapist. Is it unreasonable of us to have these expectations of men?

And can people stop comparing women to objects and possessions? I can 100% stop my bag from being stolen from my car by not leaving it in my car, but there is nothing I can do to prevent myself being raped.

When was this 'years ago'?

Have you missed the Yorkshire Ripper years?

Are you particularly anxious or raised ny anxious parents? This seems bonkers to me.

Last week, for instance, I walked alone from Piccadilly to Oxford Circus Tube at 10 pm. The streets were filled with women on their own. The Tube was filled with women on their own. That's most of Central London. You wouldn't do this simple thing?

I am afraid I don't have a large crowd of friends, and I don't spend money on cabs when the Tube is perfectly fine. I do have a husband. He's not glued to my side.

We all have different risk appetites. But London is not Mogadishu!
MN is full of deeply anxious people, though.

Which should be exactly what we say to every victim regardless of their actions?

When I was young, I went out to clubs drinking and dancing -often walked home with female friends because we didnt have a lot of money or just couldnt find a taxi. We walked chatting, laughing after having great nights out. We had every right to do so. Now i walk across the inner city after work to my car. It is dark, I cant park on site. Im not sure what else I should be doing.
My mum walked home after late shifts all the time when i was little - she didnt drive & didnt have a car. She also went out way back in the 60s. Both her (now nearly 80 and me nearly 50) wore miniskirts & all sorts back in the day.
Women deserve freedom just like men. Im not cowering away because there are violent people out there. The only responsibility for violence including sexual violence lies with the perpatrators.

And I haven't seen many people say different.
Trying to advise young women, probably having learned from our own mistakes, is no way the same as blaming them if they are attacked.

You can't leave your vagina at home or lock it up. It just isn't comparable.

It ignores the fact that stranger rape is already incredibly rare and is unlikely to happen even if you walk alone at night. It also ignores the fact that you can't actually protect yourself from the most common type of rape because it would involve never having any type of relationship with a man yet the vast majority of women take that risk which is a bigger risk than any of the other risks women are told to avoid for their apparent safety.

It is