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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Some clarity in how the trans movement became so embedded, so preeminent

1000 replies

MarcTheGenderSkeptic · 22/09/2026 13:17

Despite being called a conspiracist here by a TRA, actually I work very hard to continually interrogate my thought processes, and not fall into easy generalisations etc.
So, I was reading Róisín Michaux and her fascinating conversation with someone high up in HIV funding, and the push in the last 20 years is to get everyone in the tent on retrovirals, meaning reaching out to not just gays and addicts, but sex workers (incl trans) and critically, the "third genders" who have migrated to the West in large numbers to end up as sex workers. And the decision was made to go for maximum anti stigmatization, which means zero messaging on personal behaviour, and critically deciding to accept these men as women. Don't blame them, get more onside.
Guess who has to move aside, and accept the messaging on health grounds that biological men can be women? Made even worse by the increase in HIV in European women who are the partners of men who use the services of these "third genders".
Then yesterday I read the amazing post from Hellofabore about how for 30 years plus, the sports authorities including IOC and FIFA decided to make total inclusion the policy, phasing out gender testing, primarily to allow the male DSDs from Africa mainly to be included, as they were IDd as female at birth, and the cruelty to deny they're still female is wrong.
Again, the overwhelming need is to not stigmatize these individuals. Of course a huge group (we know who) are stigmatized for objecting to losing sports opportunities.
And then back to Róisín Michaux again, her illuminating the revolution in psychiatric medicine, where men back in the day were diagnosed with transvestic disorder, a pure paraphylia, again to stop judging and be more inclusive, underwent massive de-stigmatisation and de-pathologisation, from paraphylia, to dysphoria, now to common all garden "sexual health category".
Three enormous areas where the drive to include men, to destigmatise their plight, to bring them in from the cold, couldn't happen in a vacuum. Society organised along sex-based lines couldn't be simply recategorised, no, a large population group (51% XX) was expected to move over, make their definition porous, extend the collective hand of kindness and inclusion, to this hardcore of men who were deemed most at risk, and needing most help.
At the same time, this blurring of definitions and imposed inclusivity spread from sport and medicine to law and education, the most motivated men worked hard to get the Gender Recognition Act on the statute book, and via Stonewall culture, "social training" and the "trans child" escalated as concepts and then real world consequences as noone in polite society other than a very brave few said anything.
So now we have developing nations male DSDs and "third genders", socially incorporated transvestites/transsexuals, and queer culture first world transgenders in the mix, a political culture in the West frozen into aquiescence and policy drift, and the only light of realism and sanity, an army of women fighting back, with amazing results re SC ruling, banishing self ID into the long grass, and medical and sports bodies tacking back to sanity.
But reading the almost scary analogousness of how health brought in trans and third genders at the expense of women, sport brought in male DSDs at the expense of women, psychiatry brought in transvestites from the cold at the expense of women, you can then see how the most motivated men got the Gender Recognition Act on the statute book to turbo charge the social trans/trans child revolution.
For me, I can now see the past as it travels into the future.

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ArabellaScott · 01/10/2026 08:10

Pingponghavoc · 01/10/2026 08:09

The idea is that, on balance, a man with a diagnosis of GD should use female only spaces because he'd be happier, the integrity of the male only space would remain, and women may not notice.

He might get away with the deception, therefore everyone should go along with it.

ArabellaScott · 01/10/2026 08:13

Lacksie · 01/10/2026 08:10

There was no understanding of decades of habit, or respect for old fogies set in our ways. We were treated as heretics, and expected to repent of our misdeeds.

I understand why that was difficult for you, and also made you angry. That can definitely be a folly of young people- they don't always have the wisdom, maturity and empathy to understand things from outside their enthusiastic perspectives / youth cultures. I can understand why you felt misunderstood and dismissed.

but ultimately I think you need to ask yourself what is worth the cost of the relationship with your child. Is using a preferred name- and even (perhaps through gritted teeth) pronouns when in earshot, truly an unbearable consequence for you? can you not just quietly hold your own beliefs about sex and gender, but still work on your relationship with your son?
you don't have to question and debate if it's painful for you both.
lord knows I have many subjects I treat as such with my own dad - trans issues being one of them!! But also immigration and others.

from my experience, this quiet approach is the one that many dads - who still maintain excellent relationships with their trans children - adopt. To others, they will say "between you and me I dont see them as male/ female etc," but when it comes to their child they try to gently guide them while keeping their opinions on that to themselves. they respect their child's chosen name etc.
mothers, I find, are more likely to come round in the end to seeing things from the perspective of their child - although it usually takes a while to get to that point.

Edited

Alternatively, Rapid can uphold reality and simple facts and his son may eventually come to his senses. I agree that cults are a good parallel example and perhaps methods for rescuing from extreme religions is worth looking into.

OldCrone · 01/10/2026 08:15

Lacksie · 30/09/2026 09:32

** can you give us an idea of what point you are trying to make please?

I answered this;

The point I am trying to make is that people seem to believe that gender incongruence is some kind of superficial, false, externally imposed ideology, rooted in gender stereotypes.

When in fact, for many people, gender incongruence is a very real, neurocognitive/ psychiatric condition that comes from within a person and can cause debilitating amounts of suffering when it is untreated

You say you are not an activist. You post lists of pseudo science.

this isn't a question, it's a statement.

It feels like you think each post will be a gotcha and we will all suddenly ‘understand’ gender nonsense.

I don't know what to say to this. I would hope people would approach this topic with more curiosity and fewer assumptions, and that through reading clear and reasoned arguments they might be persuaded to open their minds a little to at least the possibility of other perspectives/ alternatives. But that is not my experience

I would love to know your view on Giggle vs Tickle. That tends to give a wider picture of a persons stance in all this

I have no idea what this is

Edited

I would hope people would approach this topic with more curiosity and fewer assumptions, and that through reading clear and reasoned arguments they might be persuaded to open their minds a little to at least the possibility of other perspectives/ alternatives. But that is not my experience

You have made a number of posts on this thread where you imply that other people here are arguing from a position of ignorance, and that you have greater knowledge and insight into the issues raised.

I would say that the opposite is true. Many of us here have been thinking about and discussing this topic for years, a decade or more in some cases. Many also have close relatives who identify as trans - their own child, their husband, or a sibling, niece, nephew or cousin - so are living this every day.

We're not the ignorant bigots you take us for. It's you who comes across as ignorant. Not knowing about Giggle v Tickle just reinforces that impression.

It might be worthwhile reading some of the threads on here and getting up to speed on what the real issues are and the arguments on both sides before commenting further.

This is quite an old thread now (from 2018!), but it might help you to understand a bit better, rather than posting any more patronising comments aimed at people who know a lot more about this than you do.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me?page=1

I hope I have persuaded you to open your mind a little to other perspectives, which you have so far seemed reluctant to do.

Pingponghavoc · 01/10/2026 08:16

from my experience, this quiet approach is the one that many dads - who still maintain excellent relationships with their trans children - adopt.

Dont you think its odd that you know many people with trans identifying children, given its such a rare condition?

GreyskySexRealistsky · 01/10/2026 08:17

Shedmistress · 01/10/2026 04:01

Let's not forget that the only reason these men were told to use the women's toilets was to prove they 'passed', which is another way of saying, if women coped without running out screaming, we can go ahead and chop your penis off.

Without even considering why women would not confront or visibly react to a clearly male person in a toilet in the first place.

It wasn't for their safety, or security. It was 'proof' that their dressing up fooled women. But women did know, we just avoided the toilets they were using and made sure we were not alone in there if we could possibly help it. Or stayed til we didn't hear them in there any more.

No woman alone in a toilet with a man wants their faces punched in. So we stayed silent. And that was taken as 'acceptance',

Edited

This.

Back then, no one asked women if they minded men in their spaces. And no one would have listened to women if they'd said they did mind.

So we're saying it now. Years later. For the avoidance of doubt. Loud and clear. Lots of us do mind.
No males in females' spaces.

ArabellaScott · 01/10/2026 08:18

Including males in womens spaces excludes many women.

GreyskySexRealistsky · 01/10/2026 08:22

ArabellaScott · 01/10/2026 08:18

Including males in womens spaces excludes many women.

It cannot be hard to understand this, surely.
Why don't those excluded women matter?

iwishitwouldstartraining · 01/10/2026 08:23

Lacksie · 30/09/2026 20:45

So the policy question.

whether or not we are going to agree on a particular theory about sex and gender , the practical challenge will remain- how do ordinary services and facilities operate fairly and sensibly in a society in which transgender people exist and need to go about their lives?

I do not think there is a single answer that applies to every situation. There are circumstances in which maintaining a service by birth sex may be justified. That is why I can understand the rationale of the Supreme Court judgment. What I do not accept is the enormous leap from that judgment to the proposition that every transgender person must now use facilities associated with their birth sex in every conceivable context.

That isn’t what the Court decided.

Sex-separated services exist for different reasons in different contexts: privacy, dignity, comfort, cultural or religious expectations, safety, therapeutic effectiveness, or simply longstanding social convention. A rape counselling group, hospital ward, communal changing room, public toilet and alcoholism support group are not interchangeable. The interests involved are different, and it makes little sense to pretend that the appropriate rule must therefore be identical in all of them.

There is another practical reality which is often strangely denied in these discussions: gender transition can profoundly alter somebody's appearance and the sex others perceive them to be. Of course not every trans person passes. But some plainly do. That isn’t an ideological assertion; it is observable reality. Remember the reallt grotesque reality programme There’s Something About Miriam In fhe early 2000s?

Because of that, a rigid birth-sex rule can sometimes undermine the very privacy, dignity and social expectations that sex separation is meant to protect.
A trans woman who has transitioned, lives entirely as a woman and is perceived by everybody around her as female may create considerably more surprise or disruption by walking into a men’s changing room than by quietly using the women’s. Similarly, a trans man who has developed a beard, male-pattern body hair, a deep voice and an otherwise conventionally male appearance may look extremely out of place in a women’s changing facility.

The Supreme Court itself explicitly recognised this practical problem. It observed that a trans woman who “presents fully as a woman” may feel that she would provoke more objection entering men’s facilities than women’s, and acknowledged that such trans women may in practice use female facilities without compromising other women’s privacy and dignity. The judgment also recognised the converse situation: transition may give a trans man such a masculine appearance or attributes that his presence in a particular women’s service could reasonably be considered inappropriate.

There was a case just the other day of a trans women who has been excluded from her substance misuse support group because of the new EHRC guidance. Desperate for support and frightened that she might relapse, she asked whether she could instead attend the men’s group. The answer there was also no: the service was deliberately organised around men discussing men’s experiences together, and they considered that her presence would be disruptive and uncomfortable for the rest of the group and undermine its purposes. So she is now without the advice and support she needs: how can that be right?

there are so many examples of this type of thing happening now that illustrate very clearly that telling a transgender person, “Use the service for your biological sex” does not necessarily produce a coherent outcome In practice.

The response is sometimes that there should simply be separate transgender facilities. Occasionally that may be possible and appropriate. But as a universal solution it isn’t realistic. There will often be nowhere near enough transgender people locally to sustain an entirely parallel network of toilets, changing rooms, shelters, hospital provision, swimming sessions, support groups and other services. It can also be intensely othering, and requiring somebody to enter a specially designated transgender facility may disclose private information about them every time they use an ordinary service.

Taken to its logical conclusion, blanket segregation can therefore mean that trans people are technically told they have somewhere they are permitted to go while in practice being unable to access large parts of ordinary social life.

That is why I think context and proportionality matter.

There will be circumstances in which exclusion may be reasonable and proportionate. A therapeutic group for female survivors of sexual violence, for example, may raise considerations very different from an ordinary public toilet. Communal accommodation, intimate personal care and some medical services may raise different questions again. Women’s privacy, dignity and safety are legitimate considerations and shouldn’t simply be dismissed.

I also understand that some women feel uncomfortable around a trans woman whom they perceive to be male. I have experienced that discomfort myself. At university I attended a lesbian group where the presence of somebody I perceived as male made me uncomfortable. I don’t think acknowledging that reaction makes somebody wicked or unreasonable. Feelings of discomfort are real, and in some settings they may be relevant to how a service should be organised. But if discomfort alone were enough to determine who may participate in public or social life, almost any minority could be excluded whenever somebody else objected to their presence. The relevant question has to be whether the discomfort reflects a genuine privacy, dignity, therapeutic or safety interest in that particular setting, and whether exclusion is a proportionate way of addressing it.

Most people navigate these situations through ordinary social behaviour. Most trans people don’t want to draw attention to themselves in a changing room or toilet any more than anybody else does. People who know that they are very visibly perceived as their birth sex will often make different choices from somebody who has lived for twenty years being universally perceived as the opposite sex. Some use neutral facilities where they are available. Most people, trans or otherwise, simply want to get changed, use the toilet, attend their support group or receive a service and leave again without anybody taking much notice of them.

Ultimately, I don’t think either extreme produces a workable answer.
“Gender identity always overrides sex, whatever the circumstances” ignores legitimate reasons why genuinely birth-sex sometimes matters.

But also every transgender person must now use birth-sex facilities everywhere” ignores the actual complexity of the Equality Act, the role of proportionality, the enormous variety of services involved and the practical reality of transition.

The more sensible approach, in my view, is context-specific. What is this particular service for? What privacy, dignity or safety interests are actually engaged? Would inclusion genuinely interfere with its purpose? What would exclusion mean in practice for the transgender person? Are there ways of accommodating everybody without defeating the purpose of the service?
Sometimes those considerations may justify exclusion. In many ordinary circumstances they may not.

That is the distinction I think has been badly lost since the Supreme Court judgment. A judgment establishing that facilities/ services can be restricted to birth sex where that is justified and proportionate has been converted into a social instruction to exclude trans people from everything possible!!!

To me this is beyond what i could ever imagine happening somewhere like the UK. Trans people still have to live in society. They have to go to work, swim, travel, go to hospital, recover from addiction, use toilets, change their clothes and seek support just like everybody else. A pluralistic society has to find practical ways of accommodating their dignity and participation alongside the privacy, dignity and safety of everybody else. That requires judgment and proportionality, not blanket rules in either direction

A pluralistic society has to find practical ways of accommodating their dignity and participation alongside the privacy, dignity and safety of everybody else.

But you aren't doing that - you are advocating for uncertainty all the time.

BackToLurk · 01/10/2026 08:26

Lacksie · 01/10/2026 07:51

DW has more sense than to get into interminable discussions on Mumsnet

She sounds very wise.

While I understand your logic, I think it rests on one very important mistaken premise — something you present as fact, but which is actually part of your own religion/ ideology/ belief system.

That premise is that being trans is itself no more than a mistaken "ideology" or "belief system”, and that accepting someone’s experience of being trans therefore amounts to “affirming a fantasy”.

while I understand your logic, it rests on one very mistake premise - that you present as a fact , but is actually your form of ideology/ belief system/ religion.

That’s why I’ve spent so much of this thread trying to point out that there is an alternative premise. You don’t have to believe it yourself, but surely you can recognise that it is at least possible.

The alternative is that gender incongruence has nothing to do with ideology. That it is rather a real condition; that for some people it can cause profound psychological distress when ignored or denied, with potentially serious consequences for their mental and physical health; and that there are a range of possible ways of responding to or treating that condition.

Which responses are appropriate should, in my view, be determined by examining the benefits, harms and consequences of each — for the individual and, where relevant, for others — rather than by attachment to some grand theory about the ultimate “Truth” of sex and gender.

I’m glad you had wonderful support, including from people who disagree with you. We need much more of that in the world.

As for why I use the word “accept”, I suppose I consider it part of my duty as a parent to meet my child wherever they are — especially when they are trying to tell me something deeply personal about themselves. Even if I disagree, even if I struggle profoundly to understand it, even if it is painful for me, I would want to hear them with curiosity and empathy, and make an honest and sincere attempt to suspend my own assumptions and judgements long enough to understand what they are actually trying to tell me.

Edited

“That it is rather a real condition; that for some people it can cause profound psychological distress when ignored or denied, with potentially serious consequences for their mental and physical health; and that there are a range of possible ways of responding to or treating that condition.” For some maybe, and no one is suggesting they shouldn’t receive treatment. But not all - or are you now claiming that - and little relevance to single-sex services and spaces.

And still no closer to discovering

Even if the law were as you suggest it is or would prefer it to be - not always meaning biological sex.

  1. what specific services or spaces do you think should be separated on the basis of an individual’s gender, rather than their sex.
  2. Why? Remembering that any service for people with, for example, a ‘female gender’ would be for all of them (because that’s how separation works) not just the ones you claim pass so well they would be in danger elsewhere.
  3. (again) How do you determine who is a transperson? What are the criteria for having a female gender identity in a male body, for example?
ArabellaScott · 01/10/2026 08:29

GreyskySexRealistsky · 01/10/2026 08:22

It cannot be hard to understand this, surely.
Why don't those excluded women matter?

Because sex matters, but only one sex. And it's not ours.

BackToLurk · 01/10/2026 08:30

ArabellaScott · 01/10/2026 08:18

Including males in womens spaces excludes many women.

Yes, and this is the judgement that @Lacksie has made. That it is preferable to exclude the many women (old style) who require single-sex services for a variety of reasons, than it is to exclude the rare ‘passing’ male who can, for example, no longer attend his recovery group.

ArabellaScott · 01/10/2026 08:31

A pluralistic society has to find practical ways of accommodating their dignity and participation alongside the privacy, dignity and safety of everybody else.

If men's participation removes women's privacy dignity safety, its no longer pluralistic but male supremacist

OldCrone · 01/10/2026 08:34

Lacksie · 01/10/2026 08:10

There was no understanding of decades of habit, or respect for old fogies set in our ways. We were treated as heretics, and expected to repent of our misdeeds.

I understand why that was difficult for you, and also made you angry. That can definitely be a folly of young people- they don't always have the wisdom, maturity and empathy to understand things from outside their enthusiastic perspectives / youth cultures. I can understand why you felt misunderstood and dismissed.

but ultimately I think you need to ask yourself what is worth the cost of the relationship with your child. Is using a preferred name- and even (perhaps through gritted teeth) pronouns when in earshot, truly an unbearable consequence for you? can you not just quietly hold your own beliefs about sex and gender, but still work on your relationship with your son?
you don't have to question and debate if it's painful for you both.
lord knows I have many subjects I treat as such with my own dad - trans issues being one of them!! But also immigration and others.

from my experience, this quiet approach is the one that many dads - who still maintain excellent relationships with their trans children - adopt. To others, they will say "between you and me I dont see them as male/ female etc," but when it comes to their child they try to gently guide them while keeping their opinions on that to themselves. they respect their child's chosen name etc.
mothers, I find, are more likely to come round in the end to seeing things from the perspective of their child - although it usually takes a while to get to that point.

Edited

I see that while I was posting a reply to an earlier post of yours, you've written yet another patronising post displaying your ignorance once again.

You'd do well to follow your own advice and try to see things from the other side.

Read more and post less until you understand fully the other perspective.

Helleofabore · 01/10/2026 08:36

“The alternative is that gender incongruence is a real condition; that for some people it can cause profound psychological distress when ignored or denied, with potentially serious consequences for their mental and physical health; and that there are a range of possible ways of responding to or treating that condition.”

Gender dysphoria is a real condition. Not one person is the opposite sex to their body.

What you are describing is affirming that person’s dysphoria by every single person in society being used as a therapeutic resource.

Most people on this thread have people with transgender identities in their everyday life. When the degree of affirmation is total, there is an issue where it negatively impacts female people.

Denial of the negative impact does not remove that negative impact when there are many examples of that negative impact and the logic doesn’t even hold up to deny the negative impact.

Lacksie · 01/10/2026 08:36

OldCrone · 01/10/2026 08:15

I would hope people would approach this topic with more curiosity and fewer assumptions, and that through reading clear and reasoned arguments they might be persuaded to open their minds a little to at least the possibility of other perspectives/ alternatives. But that is not my experience

You have made a number of posts on this thread where you imply that other people here are arguing from a position of ignorance, and that you have greater knowledge and insight into the issues raised.

I would say that the opposite is true. Many of us here have been thinking about and discussing this topic for years, a decade or more in some cases. Many also have close relatives who identify as trans - their own child, their husband, or a sibling, niece, nephew or cousin - so are living this every day.

We're not the ignorant bigots you take us for. It's you who comes across as ignorant. Not knowing about Giggle v Tickle just reinforces that impression.

It might be worthwhile reading some of the threads on here and getting up to speed on what the real issues are and the arguments on both sides before commenting further.

This is quite an old thread now (from 2018!), but it might help you to understand a bit better, rather than posting any more patronising comments aimed at people who know a lot more about this than you do.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me?page=1

I hope I have persuaded you to open your mind a little to other perspectives, which you have so far seemed reluctant to do.

I don't think we need to get into an argument about who's thought about this more or for longer. It's very possible for two different people to both think about things for a really long time, and be exposed to many of the same arguments, facts and ideas and still come to different conclusions.

What concerns me is that so much discussion on these threads starts by assuming a premise without meaningfully interrogating it- that being trans is a false ideology/ cult and everything else about what they conclude derives from that.

That’s why I’ve tried to challenge that central premis. I’m not asking people to agree with me, but to consider the possibility that their starting assumption might be wrong. The reluctance to engage meaningfully or critically with that possibility is telling.

Instead, the responses are “What relevance does this have to policy?” or “You’re a misogynist” "you hate women" —cue insult, ridicule, ad hominem attack - etc etc (flirts/ mykeating being of the most prolific on these lines). Repeating the same unexamined assertions, drawing the discussion back to the conclusions without considering the assumptions that underlie them.
But whether you understand someone’s experience as real, or dismiss it as ideological delusion, is hardly irrelevant to how you think they should be treated, personally or in policy. It shapes the whole discussion.

BackToLurk · 01/10/2026 08:39

Lacksie · 01/10/2026 08:36

I don't think we need to get into an argument about who's thought about this more or for longer. It's very possible for two different people to both think about things for a really long time, and be exposed to many of the same arguments, facts and ideas and still come to different conclusions.

What concerns me is that so much discussion on these threads starts by assuming a premise without meaningfully interrogating it- that being trans is a false ideology/ cult and everything else about what they conclude derives from that.

That’s why I’ve tried to challenge that central premis. I’m not asking people to agree with me, but to consider the possibility that their starting assumption might be wrong. The reluctance to engage meaningfully or critically with that possibility is telling.

Instead, the responses are “What relevance does this have to policy?” or “You’re a misogynist” "you hate women" —cue insult, ridicule, ad hominem attack - etc etc (flirts/ mykeating being of the most prolific on these lines). Repeating the same unexamined assertions, drawing the discussion back to the conclusions without considering the assumptions that underlie them.
But whether you understand someone’s experience as real, or dismiss it as ideological delusion, is hardly irrelevant to how you think they should be treated, personally or in policy. It shapes the whole discussion.

Edited

The questions you choose to address, annd those you ignore, indicate how hard you’ve thought about this.

Shedmistress · 01/10/2026 08:41

Lacksie · 01/10/2026 08:36

I don't think we need to get into an argument about who's thought about this more or for longer. It's very possible for two different people to both think about things for a really long time, and be exposed to many of the same arguments, facts and ideas and still come to different conclusions.

What concerns me is that so much discussion on these threads starts by assuming a premise without meaningfully interrogating it- that being trans is a false ideology/ cult and everything else about what they conclude derives from that.

That’s why I’ve tried to challenge that central premis. I’m not asking people to agree with me, but to consider the possibility that their starting assumption might be wrong. The reluctance to engage meaningfully or critically with that possibility is telling.

Instead, the responses are “What relevance does this have to policy?” or “You’re a misogynist” "you hate women" —cue insult, ridicule, ad hominem attack - etc etc (flirts/ mykeating being of the most prolific on these lines). Repeating the same unexamined assertions, drawing the discussion back to the conclusions without considering the assumptions that underlie them.
But whether you understand someone’s experience as real, or dismiss it as ideological delusion, is hardly irrelevant to how you think they should be treated, personally or in policy. It shapes the whole discussion.

Edited

The central premise is that there are males and females.

And males as a class are a threat to females as a class.

That's it.

iwishitwouldstartraining · 01/10/2026 08:41

Lacksie · 01/10/2026 08:36

I don't think we need to get into an argument about who's thought about this more or for longer. It's very possible for two different people to both think about things for a really long time, and be exposed to many of the same arguments, facts and ideas and still come to different conclusions.

What concerns me is that so much discussion on these threads starts by assuming a premise without meaningfully interrogating it- that being trans is a false ideology/ cult and everything else about what they conclude derives from that.

That’s why I’ve tried to challenge that central premis. I’m not asking people to agree with me, but to consider the possibility that their starting assumption might be wrong. The reluctance to engage meaningfully or critically with that possibility is telling.

Instead, the responses are “What relevance does this have to policy?” or “You’re a misogynist” "you hate women" —cue insult, ridicule, ad hominem attack - etc etc (flirts/ mykeating being of the most prolific on these lines). Repeating the same unexamined assertions, drawing the discussion back to the conclusions without considering the assumptions that underlie them.
But whether you understand someone’s experience as real, or dismiss it as ideological delusion, is hardly irrelevant to how you think they should be treated, personally or in policy. It shapes the whole discussion.

Edited

So, having now thought about the issue, could you explain the circumstances in which you would organise a service by gender, who you would exclude and on what basis?

Lacksie · 01/10/2026 08:44

Shedmistress · 01/10/2026 08:41

The central premise is that there are males and females.

And males as a class are a threat to females as a class.

That's it.

This is a perfect demonstration of the point

FlirtsWithRhinos · 01/10/2026 08:45

The problem for Genderists is that any pragmatic reason they give for including trans people in opposite sex provisions can also apply to people who don't identify as trans.

For example:

Plenty of men who don't identify as trans feel physically or psychologically unsafe in certain male-only spaces.

Drag queens can look far more convincing than many transwomen.

Plenty of people have a fairly gender neutral or androgynous presentation, either deliberately or just because they can't be arsed.

Many men feel more comfortable in mostly female social settings.

The only difference between these people and "trans" people is in the person's inner feelings, which of course make diddly squat difference to the practical use of that resource.

The reason Genderists make their "pragmatic" arguments against the Equalities Act SSE being based on sex but only on behalf of trans people shows up that these are not motivated by pragmatism at all, but by their ideological views about Gender Identity.

BackToLurk · 01/10/2026 08:45

Lacksie · 01/10/2026 08:44

This is a perfect demonstration of the point

And your reply, mine.

GreyskySexRealistsky · 01/10/2026 08:45

Lacksie · 01/10/2026 08:36

I don't think we need to get into an argument about who's thought about this more or for longer. It's very possible for two different people to both think about things for a really long time, and be exposed to many of the same arguments, facts and ideas and still come to different conclusions.

What concerns me is that so much discussion on these threads starts by assuming a premise without meaningfully interrogating it- that being trans is a false ideology/ cult and everything else about what they conclude derives from that.

That’s why I’ve tried to challenge that central premis. I’m not asking people to agree with me, but to consider the possibility that their starting assumption might be wrong. The reluctance to engage meaningfully or critically with that possibility is telling.

Instead, the responses are “What relevance does this have to policy?” or “You’re a misogynist” "you hate women" —cue insult, ridicule, ad hominem attack - etc etc (flirts/ mykeating being of the most prolific on these lines). Repeating the same unexamined assertions, drawing the discussion back to the conclusions without considering the assumptions that underlie them.
But whether you understand someone’s experience as real, or dismiss it as ideological delusion, is hardly irrelevant to how you think they should be treated, personally or in policy. It shapes the whole discussion.

Edited

Ah right.
You haven't listened, read or thought properly at all.
Disappointing.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 01/10/2026 08:47

"Have you considered that...."

"Yes, actually. From every angle. It still doesn't add up."

"Well I don't think we need to get into who has thought about it the most!"

😂🤣 😂

Shedmistress · 01/10/2026 08:49

Lacksie · 01/10/2026 08:44

This is a perfect demonstration of the point

It literally IS THE POINT.

TheKeatingFive · 01/10/2026 08:50

Lacksie · 01/10/2026 08:44

This is a perfect demonstration of the point

Well yes it is. It’s 100% true

What bit of it do you take issue with?

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