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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Some clarity in how the trans movement became so embedded, so preeminent

1000 replies

MarcTheGenderSkeptic · 22/09/2026 13:17

Despite being called a conspiracist here by a TRA, actually I work very hard to continually interrogate my thought processes, and not fall into easy generalisations etc.
So, I was reading Róisín Michaux and her fascinating conversation with someone high up in HIV funding, and the push in the last 20 years is to get everyone in the tent on retrovirals, meaning reaching out to not just gays and addicts, but sex workers (incl trans) and critically, the "third genders" who have migrated to the West in large numbers to end up as sex workers. And the decision was made to go for maximum anti stigmatization, which means zero messaging on personal behaviour, and critically deciding to accept these men as women. Don't blame them, get more onside.
Guess who has to move aside, and accept the messaging on health grounds that biological men can be women? Made even worse by the increase in HIV in European women who are the partners of men who use the services of these "third genders".
Then yesterday I read the amazing post from Hellofabore about how for 30 years plus, the sports authorities including IOC and FIFA decided to make total inclusion the policy, phasing out gender testing, primarily to allow the male DSDs from Africa mainly to be included, as they were IDd as female at birth, and the cruelty to deny they're still female is wrong.
Again, the overwhelming need is to not stigmatize these individuals. Of course a huge group (we know who) are stigmatized for objecting to losing sports opportunities.
And then back to Róisín Michaux again, her illuminating the revolution in psychiatric medicine, where men back in the day were diagnosed with transvestic disorder, a pure paraphylia, again to stop judging and be more inclusive, underwent massive de-stigmatisation and de-pathologisation, from paraphylia, to dysphoria, now to common all garden "sexual health category".
Three enormous areas where the drive to include men, to destigmatise their plight, to bring them in from the cold, couldn't happen in a vacuum. Society organised along sex-based lines couldn't be simply recategorised, no, a large population group (51% XX) was expected to move over, make their definition porous, extend the collective hand of kindness and inclusion, to this hardcore of men who were deemed most at risk, and needing most help.
At the same time, this blurring of definitions and imposed inclusivity spread from sport and medicine to law and education, the most motivated men worked hard to get the Gender Recognition Act on the statute book, and via Stonewall culture, "social training" and the "trans child" escalated as concepts and then real world consequences as noone in polite society other than a very brave few said anything.
So now we have developing nations male DSDs and "third genders", socially incorporated transvestites/transsexuals, and queer culture first world transgenders in the mix, a political culture in the West frozen into aquiescence and policy drift, and the only light of realism and sanity, an army of women fighting back, with amazing results re SC ruling, banishing self ID into the long grass, and medical and sports bodies tacking back to sanity.
But reading the almost scary analogousness of how health brought in trans and third genders at the expense of women, sport brought in male DSDs at the expense of women, psychiatry brought in transvestites from the cold at the expense of women, you can then see how the most motivated men got the Gender Recognition Act on the statute book to turbo charge the social trans/trans child revolution.
For me, I can now see the past as it travels into the future.

OP posts:
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12
Lacksie · 30/09/2026 20:58

Rollingpinofdoom · 30/09/2026 20:55

To me this is beyond what i could ever imagine happening somewhere like the UK. Trans people still have to live in society. They have to go to work, swim, travel, go to hospital, recover from addiction, use toilets, change their clothes and seek support just like everybody else.

And they can do this whilst using facilities relevant to their sex.

They often can't though, for reasons I just laid out in detail above.

what on earth is the point in this if you are not even going to engage but just endlessly repeat the same basic assertion over and over?.

TheKeatingFive · 30/09/2026 21:00

Lacksie · 30/09/2026 20:58

They often can't though, for reasons I just laid out in detail above.

what on earth is the point in this if you are not even going to engage but just endlessly repeat the same basic assertion over and over?.

Why can’t they?

Shedmistress · 30/09/2026 21:04

Lacksie · 30/09/2026 20:58

They often can't though, for reasons I just laid out in detail above.

what on earth is the point in this if you are not even going to engage but just endlessly repeat the same basic assertion over and over?.

Men have used male toilets their whole lives. Statistically they are the safest demographic. Why on earth can't they carry on using male toilets for the rest of their lives? They all have cubicles already. They are perfect for men who want to sit to use the toilet.

BackToLurk · 30/09/2026 21:04

Lacksie · 30/09/2026 20:45

So the policy question.

whether or not we are going to agree on a particular theory about sex and gender , the practical challenge will remain- how do ordinary services and facilities operate fairly and sensibly in a society in which transgender people exist and need to go about their lives?

I do not think there is a single answer that applies to every situation. There are circumstances in which maintaining a service by birth sex may be justified. That is why I can understand the rationale of the Supreme Court judgment. What I do not accept is the enormous leap from that judgment to the proposition that every transgender person must now use facilities associated with their birth sex in every conceivable context.

That isn’t what the Court decided.

Sex-separated services exist for different reasons in different contexts: privacy, dignity, comfort, cultural or religious expectations, safety, therapeutic effectiveness, or simply longstanding social convention. A rape counselling group, hospital ward, communal changing room, public toilet and alcoholism support group are not interchangeable. The interests involved are different, and it makes little sense to pretend that the appropriate rule must therefore be identical in all of them.

There is another practical reality which is often strangely denied in these discussions: gender transition can profoundly alter somebody's appearance and the sex others perceive them to be. Of course not every trans person passes. But some plainly do. That isn’t an ideological assertion; it is observable reality. Remember the reallt grotesque reality programme There’s Something About Miriam In fhe early 2000s?

Because of that, a rigid birth-sex rule can sometimes undermine the very privacy, dignity and social expectations that sex separation is meant to protect.
A trans woman who has transitioned, lives entirely as a woman and is perceived by everybody around her as female may create considerably more surprise or disruption by walking into a men’s changing room than by quietly using the women’s. Similarly, a trans man who has developed a beard, male-pattern body hair, a deep voice and an otherwise conventionally male appearance may look extremely out of place in a women’s changing facility.

The Supreme Court itself explicitly recognised this practical problem. It observed that a trans woman who “presents fully as a woman” may feel that she would provoke more objection entering men’s facilities than women’s, and acknowledged that such trans women may in practice use female facilities without compromising other women’s privacy and dignity. The judgment also recognised the converse situation: transition may give a trans man such a masculine appearance or attributes that his presence in a particular women’s service could reasonably be considered inappropriate.

There was a case just the other day of a trans women who has been excluded from her substance misuse support group because of the new EHRC guidance. Desperate for support and frightened that she might relapse, she asked whether she could instead attend the men’s group. The answer there was also no: the service was deliberately organised around men discussing men’s experiences together, and they considered that her presence would be disruptive and uncomfortable for the rest of the group and undermine its purposes. So she is now without the advice and support she needs: how can that be right?

there are so many examples of this type of thing happening now that illustrate very clearly that telling a transgender person, “Use the service for your biological sex” does not necessarily produce a coherent outcome In practice.

The response is sometimes that there should simply be separate transgender facilities. Occasionally that may be possible and appropriate. But as a universal solution it isn’t realistic. There will often be nowhere near enough transgender people locally to sustain an entirely parallel network of toilets, changing rooms, shelters, hospital provision, swimming sessions, support groups and other services. It can also be intensely othering, and requiring somebody to enter a specially designated transgender facility may disclose private information about them every time they use an ordinary service.

Taken to its logical conclusion, blanket segregation can therefore mean that trans people are technically told they have somewhere they are permitted to go while in practice being unable to access large parts of ordinary social life.

That is why I think context and proportionality matter.

There will be circumstances in which exclusion may be reasonable and proportionate. A therapeutic group for female survivors of sexual violence, for example, may raise considerations very different from an ordinary public toilet. Communal accommodation, intimate personal care and some medical services may raise different questions again. Women’s privacy, dignity and safety are legitimate considerations and shouldn’t simply be dismissed.

I also understand that some women feel uncomfortable around a trans woman whom they perceive to be male. I have experienced that discomfort myself. At university I attended a lesbian group where the presence of somebody I perceived as male made me uncomfortable. I don’t think acknowledging that reaction makes somebody wicked or unreasonable. Feelings of discomfort are real, and in some settings they may be relevant to how a service should be organised. But if discomfort alone were enough to determine who may participate in public or social life, almost any minority could be excluded whenever somebody else objected to their presence. The relevant question has to be whether the discomfort reflects a genuine privacy, dignity, therapeutic or safety interest in that particular setting, and whether exclusion is a proportionate way of addressing it.

Most people navigate these situations through ordinary social behaviour. Most trans people don’t want to draw attention to themselves in a changing room or toilet any more than anybody else does. People who know that they are very visibly perceived as their birth sex will often make different choices from somebody who has lived for twenty years being universally perceived as the opposite sex. Some use neutral facilities where they are available. Most people, trans or otherwise, simply want to get changed, use the toilet, attend their support group or receive a service and leave again without anybody taking much notice of them.

Ultimately, I don’t think either extreme produces a workable answer.
“Gender identity always overrides sex, whatever the circumstances” ignores legitimate reasons why genuinely birth-sex sometimes matters.

But also every transgender person must now use birth-sex facilities everywhere” ignores the actual complexity of the Equality Act, the role of proportionality, the enormous variety of services involved and the practical reality of transition.

The more sensible approach, in my view, is context-specific. What is this particular service for? What privacy, dignity or safety interests are actually engaged? Would inclusion genuinely interfere with its purpose? What would exclusion mean in practice for the transgender person? Are there ways of accommodating everybody without defeating the purpose of the service?
Sometimes those considerations may justify exclusion. In many ordinary circumstances they may not.

That is the distinction I think has been badly lost since the Supreme Court judgment. A judgment establishing that facilities/ services can be restricted to birth sex where that is justified and proportionate has been converted into a social instruction to exclude trans people from everything possible!!!

To me this is beyond what i could ever imagine happening somewhere like the UK. Trans people still have to live in society. They have to go to work, swim, travel, go to hospital, recover from addiction, use toilets, change their clothes and seek support just like everybody else. A pluralistic society has to find practical ways of accommodating their dignity and participation alongside the privacy, dignity and safety of everybody else. That requires judgment and proportionality, not blanket rules in either direction

That’s comprehensive and I’d like to respond more fully in time, but the thing that jumps out at me is that you still have no working definition of who ‘transgender people’ are. You’ve discussed in depth the distress felt by people with gender dysphoria but this is by no means all transpeople. I’m not even convinced it’s currently most - particularly once you factor in non-binary people, who also largely identify as trans and are not accommodated within your discussion of policy. This is one of the reasons why separation by sex makes sense in a legal context. It is clearly defined (except possibly in the case of the minutely tiny amount of people whose DSD may make it less clear - before that’s leveraged again).

Lacksie · 30/09/2026 21:05

BackToLurk · 30/09/2026 21:04

That’s comprehensive and I’d like to respond more fully in time, but the thing that jumps out at me is that you still have no working definition of who ‘transgender people’ are. You’ve discussed in depth the distress felt by people with gender dysphoria but this is by no means all transpeople. I’m not even convinced it’s currently most - particularly once you factor in non-binary people, who also largely identify as trans and are not accommodated within your discussion of policy. This is one of the reasons why separation by sex makes sense in a legal context. It is clearly defined (except possibly in the case of the minutely tiny amount of people whose DSD may make it less clear - before that’s leveraged again).

Thank you for engaging 🙏🏻

FlirtsWithRhinos · 30/09/2026 21:06

Lacksie · 30/09/2026 20:49

I think your distress about what you are going through with your child is very real and very valid. I would in no way shape or form underestimate or trivialise that. It can be incredibly painful for a parent to accept their child transitioning.

On the other hand, I think @FlirtsWithRhinos posts / lines of argumentation are so beyond ridiculous, callous, self-indulgent and solipsistic I can't even dignify them further with a response.

Edited

Whereas I think you tell yourself that as a handy reason not to think properly about what I am saying because you are too scared to admit to yourself the real world implications of what you champion.

I find your arguments cowardly, facile and shallow. They read to me like someone more attached to her self image as "reasonable" than someone who has thought at all about what she is saying.

Please, do not worry yourself that you are not "dignifying" my posts with a response. Your responses are far too shallow to dignify anything at all.

MyAmpleSheep · 30/09/2026 21:07

Lacksie · 30/09/2026 20:45

So the policy question.

whether or not we are going to agree on a particular theory about sex and gender , the practical challenge will remain- how do ordinary services and facilities operate fairly and sensibly in a society in which transgender people exist and need to go about their lives?

I do not think there is a single answer that applies to every situation. There are circumstances in which maintaining a service by birth sex may be justified. That is why I can understand the rationale of the Supreme Court judgment. What I do not accept is the enormous leap from that judgment to the proposition that every transgender person must now use facilities associated with their birth sex in every conceivable context.

That isn’t what the Court decided.

Sex-separated services exist for different reasons in different contexts: privacy, dignity, comfort, cultural or religious expectations, safety, therapeutic effectiveness, or simply longstanding social convention. A rape counselling group, hospital ward, communal changing room, public toilet and alcoholism support group are not interchangeable. The interests involved are different, and it makes little sense to pretend that the appropriate rule must therefore be identical in all of them.

There is another practical reality which is often strangely denied in these discussions: gender transition can profoundly alter somebody's appearance and the sex others perceive them to be. Of course not every trans person passes. But some plainly do. That isn’t an ideological assertion; it is observable reality. Remember the reallt grotesque reality programme There’s Something About Miriam In fhe early 2000s?

Because of that, a rigid birth-sex rule can sometimes undermine the very privacy, dignity and social expectations that sex separation is meant to protect.
A trans woman who has transitioned, lives entirely as a woman and is perceived by everybody around her as female may create considerably more surprise or disruption by walking into a men’s changing room than by quietly using the women’s. Similarly, a trans man who has developed a beard, male-pattern body hair, a deep voice and an otherwise conventionally male appearance may look extremely out of place in a women’s changing facility.

The Supreme Court itself explicitly recognised this practical problem. It observed that a trans woman who “presents fully as a woman” may feel that she would provoke more objection entering men’s facilities than women’s, and acknowledged that such trans women may in practice use female facilities without compromising other women’s privacy and dignity. The judgment also recognised the converse situation: transition may give a trans man such a masculine appearance or attributes that his presence in a particular women’s service could reasonably be considered inappropriate.

There was a case just the other day of a trans women who has been excluded from her substance misuse support group because of the new EHRC guidance. Desperate for support and frightened that she might relapse, she asked whether she could instead attend the men’s group. The answer there was also no: the service was deliberately organised around men discussing men’s experiences together, and they considered that her presence would be disruptive and uncomfortable for the rest of the group and undermine its purposes. So she is now without the advice and support she needs: how can that be right?

there are so many examples of this type of thing happening now that illustrate very clearly that telling a transgender person, “Use the service for your biological sex” does not necessarily produce a coherent outcome In practice.

The response is sometimes that there should simply be separate transgender facilities. Occasionally that may be possible and appropriate. But as a universal solution it isn’t realistic. There will often be nowhere near enough transgender people locally to sustain an entirely parallel network of toilets, changing rooms, shelters, hospital provision, swimming sessions, support groups and other services. It can also be intensely othering, and requiring somebody to enter a specially designated transgender facility may disclose private information about them every time they use an ordinary service.

Taken to its logical conclusion, blanket segregation can therefore mean that trans people are technically told they have somewhere they are permitted to go while in practice being unable to access large parts of ordinary social life.

That is why I think context and proportionality matter.

There will be circumstances in which exclusion may be reasonable and proportionate. A therapeutic group for female survivors of sexual violence, for example, may raise considerations very different from an ordinary public toilet. Communal accommodation, intimate personal care and some medical services may raise different questions again. Women’s privacy, dignity and safety are legitimate considerations and shouldn’t simply be dismissed.

I also understand that some women feel uncomfortable around a trans woman whom they perceive to be male. I have experienced that discomfort myself. At university I attended a lesbian group where the presence of somebody I perceived as male made me uncomfortable. I don’t think acknowledging that reaction makes somebody wicked or unreasonable. Feelings of discomfort are real, and in some settings they may be relevant to how a service should be organised. But if discomfort alone were enough to determine who may participate in public or social life, almost any minority could be excluded whenever somebody else objected to their presence. The relevant question has to be whether the discomfort reflects a genuine privacy, dignity, therapeutic or safety interest in that particular setting, and whether exclusion is a proportionate way of addressing it.

Most people navigate these situations through ordinary social behaviour. Most trans people don’t want to draw attention to themselves in a changing room or toilet any more than anybody else does. People who know that they are very visibly perceived as their birth sex will often make different choices from somebody who has lived for twenty years being universally perceived as the opposite sex. Some use neutral facilities where they are available. Most people, trans or otherwise, simply want to get changed, use the toilet, attend their support group or receive a service and leave again without anybody taking much notice of them.

Ultimately, I don’t think either extreme produces a workable answer.
“Gender identity always overrides sex, whatever the circumstances” ignores legitimate reasons why genuinely birth-sex sometimes matters.

But also every transgender person must now use birth-sex facilities everywhere” ignores the actual complexity of the Equality Act, the role of proportionality, the enormous variety of services involved and the practical reality of transition.

The more sensible approach, in my view, is context-specific. What is this particular service for? What privacy, dignity or safety interests are actually engaged? Would inclusion genuinely interfere with its purpose? What would exclusion mean in practice for the transgender person? Are there ways of accommodating everybody without defeating the purpose of the service?
Sometimes those considerations may justify exclusion. In many ordinary circumstances they may not.

That is the distinction I think has been badly lost since the Supreme Court judgment. A judgment establishing that facilities/ services can be restricted to birth sex where that is justified and proportionate has been converted into a social instruction to exclude trans people from everything possible!!!

To me this is beyond what i could ever imagine happening somewhere like the UK. Trans people still have to live in society. They have to go to work, swim, travel, go to hospital, recover from addiction, use toilets, change their clothes and seek support just like everybody else. A pluralistic society has to find practical ways of accommodating their dignity and participation alongside the privacy, dignity and safety of everybody else. That requires judgment and proportionality, not blanket rules in either direction

Words words because words.

There are circumstances in which maintaining a service by birth sex may be justified.

Well yes; we all think so. But which ones are justified only being segregated by self-declared gender and not by sex? We need details, actual details. From you. Stop hand wringing, dodging the question, and pony up the answer.

otherwise it’s just words words difficult be kind words challenging difficult words.

Rollingpinofdoom · 30/09/2026 21:08

Lacksie · 30/09/2026 20:58

They often can't though, for reasons I just laid out in detail above.

what on earth is the point in this if you are not even going to engage but just endlessly repeat the same basic assertion over and over?.

They can perfectly well use the facilities relevant to their sex, they just don’t want to. If they feel uncomfortable, that’s on them to deal with.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 30/09/2026 21:12

Rollingpinofdoom · 30/09/2026 21:08

They can perfectly well use the facilities relevant to their sex, they just don’t want to. If they feel uncomfortable, that’s on them to deal with.

Yep - women's spaces are not support facilities for sad/ill/deluded men and women are not their support humans either

BlueLegume · 30/09/2026 21:15

@Lacksie What with work presentations to do, school runs and watching every thread on MN and contributing all pro trans propaganda-take a break.

Helleofabore · 30/09/2026 21:15

“The Supreme Court itself explicitly recognised this practical problem. It observed that a trans woman who “presents fully as a woman” may feel that she would provoke more objection entering men’s facilities than women’s, and acknowledged that such trans women may in practice use female facilities without compromising other women’s privacy and dignity.”

Please link the paragraph numbers where the SC Judgement stated that

“trans women may in practice use female facilities without compromising other women’s privacy and dignity.”

Because how does this work? The judgement pointed out that any male person entering a female single sex provision makes that provision mixed sex and no longer single sex.

And how exactly does a male person entering a female single sex provision not compromise the privacy and dignity of female people who need that provision to be single sex?

Do you believe that access by stealth doesn’t negatively impact female people’s confidence that the provision is single sex, for instance? Do you believe that what female person doesn’t know at the time (but may do in the future) is harmless?

Also, you have not one shred of evidence that a male person will ‘pass’ for 100% of the time with 100% of female people not correctly identifying the sex category of a male person. That evidence doesn’t exist. You have made a claim that is simply not accurate.

Therefore, there is no guarantee that a female person who correctly identifies the sex category of the male person accessing that provision will not be using that provision at the same time. So, again, you make claims you simply cannot support with evidence.

Lacksie · 30/09/2026 21:16

Rollingpinofdoom · 30/09/2026 21:08

They can perfectly well use the facilities relevant to their sex, they just don’t want to. If they feel uncomfortable, that’s on them to deal with.

They can't. This isn't about choosing not to, trans people are routinely being denied/ refused access to facilities for their birth sex for reasons I set out clearly in my post. The EHRC guidance the SC judgement also specifically provide for this (that trans people may be denied access to facilities for their birth sex).

Im going to leave this conversation here; as there is little point me spending time providing detailed responses to questions if people are just going to ignore them entirely and just make the same baseless assertions over and over again.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 30/09/2026 21:19

BackToLurk · 30/09/2026 21:04

That’s comprehensive and I’d like to respond more fully in time, but the thing that jumps out at me is that you still have no working definition of who ‘transgender people’ are. You’ve discussed in depth the distress felt by people with gender dysphoria but this is by no means all transpeople. I’m not even convinced it’s currently most - particularly once you factor in non-binary people, who also largely identify as trans and are not accommodated within your discussion of policy. This is one of the reasons why separation by sex makes sense in a legal context. It is clearly defined (except possibly in the case of the minutely tiny amount of people whose DSD may make it less clear - before that’s leveraged again).

Yep, that shone out to me as well.

Lots of waffle about "different circumstances" but really it's just the same old "oh but TW are so girly they can't go in the gents, you'd be scared of a TM in your changing rooms, no one is really saying women can't have single sex rape services" we get all the time, the latter despite there being fucking court cases about exactly that.

And still absolutely no recognition that what she is really advocating for is segregation by personality, with most people having some sort of personality group foisted onto them regardless of whether they actually identify that way or not, because that is how trans people say other people must feel.

As I say so often, it's all just sexism.

The sexism that some ways of thinking, feeling or being are only right for one sex and not the other, and the sexism that the simple fact of being of the half of humanity that is female and the consequences that come with it are simply not as important as accomodating whatever it is that makes trans people unhappy.

The more sensible approach, in my view, is context-specific. What is this particular service for? What privacy, dignity or safety interests are actually engaged? Would inclusion genuinely interfere with its purpose? What would exclusion mean in practice for the transgender person? Are there ways of accommodating everybody without defeating the purpose of the service?
Sometimes those considerations may justify exclusion. In many ordinary circumstances they may not.

Now to be fair, I thought these were great questions. Really getting to the heart of the practical implications.

I also noted @Lacksie didn't risk trying to actually answer them, or provide any worked examples to show how his/her ideas of accomodating trans people's self image would play out.

As I said - scared.

I suspect s/he may have tried to find some examples and came up blank. Though sadly I'm very sure that even if s/he did, she's only consider them from the perspective of his/her putative trans person and even worse, not even realise s/he was doing it.

BlueLegume · 30/09/2026 21:20

@Lacksie simple advice. If you have the family near - sit down and enjoy the evening. Get ready for the school run you mentioned. Sleep well. This online battle is not worth time away from your real family

Lacksie · 30/09/2026 21:22

Helleofabore · 30/09/2026 21:15

“The Supreme Court itself explicitly recognised this practical problem. It observed that a trans woman who “presents fully as a woman” may feel that she would provoke more objection entering men’s facilities than women’s, and acknowledged that such trans women may in practice use female facilities without compromising other women’s privacy and dignity.”

Please link the paragraph numbers where the SC Judgement stated that

“trans women may in practice use female facilities without compromising other women’s privacy and dignity.”

Because how does this work? The judgement pointed out that any male person entering a female single sex provision makes that provision mixed sex and no longer single sex.

And how exactly does a male person entering a female single sex provision not compromise the privacy and dignity of female people who need that provision to be single sex?

Do you believe that access by stealth doesn’t negatively impact female people’s confidence that the provision is single sex, for instance? Do you believe that what female person doesn’t know at the time (but may do in the future) is harmless?

Also, you have not one shred of evidence that a male person will ‘pass’ for 100% of the time with 100% of female people not correctly identifying the sex category of a male person. That evidence doesn’t exist. You have made a claim that is simply not accurate.

Therefore, there is no guarantee that a female person who correctly identifies the sex category of the male person accessing that provision will not be using that provision at the same time. So, again, you make claims you simply cannot support with evidence.

Parag 217

"Because how does this work? The judgement pointed out that any male person entering a female single sex provision makes that provision mixed sex and no longer single sex"

The judgement did NOT say this: this is how it has been widely interpreted including by the EHRC guidance but that's not the same thing as the court actually saying this itself. They didn't.

MyAmpleSheep · 30/09/2026 21:23

L completely unable to answer any of the difficult questions we’ve been waiting for patiently, then a flounce out at the end as we’re all too demanding.

I still think she’ll get there in the end though. The seeds of doubt are sown.

Lacksie · 30/09/2026 21:23

BlueLegume · 30/09/2026 21:20

@Lacksie simple advice. If you have the family near - sit down and enjoy the evening. Get ready for the school run you mentioned. Sleep well. This online battle is not worth time away from your real family

Done xx

FlirtsWithRhinos · 30/09/2026 21:24

MyAmpleSheep · 30/09/2026 21:07

Words words because words.

There are circumstances in which maintaining a service by birth sex may be justified.

Well yes; we all think so. But which ones are justified only being segregated by self-declared gender and not by sex? We need details, actual details. From you. Stop hand wringing, dodging the question, and pony up the answer.

otherwise it’s just words words difficult be kind words challenging difficult words.

Edited

Yep. So painfully obvious. Embarassing really.

You know, up til his/her last post I was being gentle and careful about hurting @Lacksie 's feelings or showing him/her up too much.

But as s/he obviously doesn't think that's necessary when dealing with others, I'll just be straightforward now.

Helleofabore · 30/09/2026 21:24

Lacksie · 30/09/2026 20:58

They often can't though, for reasons I just laid out in detail above.

what on earth is the point in this if you are not even going to engage but just endlessly repeat the same basic assertion over and over?.

There are male people with transgender identities who do use the male single sex provision and do so without incident. They even video the experiment to reassure others that it is possible.

If there is a safety issue, then it is time for a campaign to be started that made male single sex provisions safe for ALL male people. However they identify.

Because if a group of male people reject the male single sex provisions that are designated for them, the solution was never to allow them access to the female single sex provision.

Female single sex provisions are not there for male people who have had extreme body modification to access. Because those male people are male people regardless of any statement by them that that are not male. That is a self constructed subjective reality that doesn’t reflect the material reality of their sex.

BackToLurk · 30/09/2026 21:25

Lacksie · 30/09/2026 21:16

They can't. This isn't about choosing not to, trans people are routinely being denied/ refused access to facilities for their birth sex for reasons I set out clearly in my post. The EHRC guidance the SC judgement also specifically provide for this (that trans people may be denied access to facilities for their birth sex).

Im going to leave this conversation here; as there is little point me spending time providing detailed responses to questions if people are just going to ignore them entirely and just make the same baseless assertions over and over again.

Edited

That’s a shame. I was hoping to discover how you can argue, for example, “It is right that service X can be accessed by both women and transwomen” without ever defining who is included in the category ‘transwomen’.

Shedmistress · 30/09/2026 21:26

Lacksie · 30/09/2026 21:16

They can't. This isn't about choosing not to, trans people are routinely being denied/ refused access to facilities for their birth sex for reasons I set out clearly in my post. The EHRC guidance the SC judgement also specifically provide for this (that trans people may be denied access to facilities for their birth sex).

Im going to leave this conversation here; as there is little point me spending time providing detailed responses to questions if people are just going to ignore them entirely and just make the same baseless assertions over and over again.

Edited

Of course they can, they've done it their whole lives. This is the actual moral panic, that men can't use the gents. They can even piss up the bloody wall or down an alley or in a hedge. If they are one of the very rare men who decide to have their penis removed then they can use the cubicles. The gents is the original 'mixed gender' facility.

TheKeatingFive · 30/09/2026 21:27

Lacksie · 30/09/2026 21:16

They can't. This isn't about choosing not to, trans people are routinely being denied/ refused access to facilities for their birth sex for reasons I set out clearly in my post. The EHRC guidance the SC judgement also specifically provide for this (that trans people may be denied access to facilities for their birth sex).

Im going to leave this conversation here; as there is little point me spending time providing detailed responses to questions if people are just going to ignore them entirely and just make the same baseless assertions over and over again.

Edited

This is complete and utter nonsense

BlueLegume · 30/09/2026 21:27

Lacksie · 30/09/2026 21:23

Done xx

Good. As someone who has been diagnosed with ADHD as you mentioned earlier, you spend an inordinate amount online. With children you must be busy, I know I was when I had small and young kids. And a job.

Would love to know what your job is.

Helleofabore · 30/09/2026 21:28

If people make conscious and deliberate decisions to undergo extreme body modifications, it is not any other person’s responsibility to accept their own needs not being met because someone has made that decision.

It is the person who has made that decision to take responsibility for that decision.

murasaki · 30/09/2026 21:30

In terms of substance abuse services, why can't transpeople set up their own? Women had to. And especially thinking of Sarah in Brighton the re rape crisis centre where the council have refused to arrange an actual women only service. Despite being told to.

No one wants them to go without the services they need, but maybe they could put a little effort into setting them up, amd not distress other people by glomming onto theirs.

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