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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Some clarity in how the trans movement became so embedded, so preeminent

1000 replies

MarcTheGenderSkeptic · 22/09/2026 13:17

Despite being called a conspiracist here by a TRA, actually I work very hard to continually interrogate my thought processes, and not fall into easy generalisations etc.
So, I was reading Róisín Michaux and her fascinating conversation with someone high up in HIV funding, and the push in the last 20 years is to get everyone in the tent on retrovirals, meaning reaching out to not just gays and addicts, but sex workers (incl trans) and critically, the "third genders" who have migrated to the West in large numbers to end up as sex workers. And the decision was made to go for maximum anti stigmatization, which means zero messaging on personal behaviour, and critically deciding to accept these men as women. Don't blame them, get more onside.
Guess who has to move aside, and accept the messaging on health grounds that biological men can be women? Made even worse by the increase in HIV in European women who are the partners of men who use the services of these "third genders".
Then yesterday I read the amazing post from Hellofabore about how for 30 years plus, the sports authorities including IOC and FIFA decided to make total inclusion the policy, phasing out gender testing, primarily to allow the male DSDs from Africa mainly to be included, as they were IDd as female at birth, and the cruelty to deny they're still female is wrong.
Again, the overwhelming need is to not stigmatize these individuals. Of course a huge group (we know who) are stigmatized for objecting to losing sports opportunities.
And then back to Róisín Michaux again, her illuminating the revolution in psychiatric medicine, where men back in the day were diagnosed with transvestic disorder, a pure paraphylia, again to stop judging and be more inclusive, underwent massive de-stigmatisation and de-pathologisation, from paraphylia, to dysphoria, now to common all garden "sexual health category".
Three enormous areas where the drive to include men, to destigmatise their plight, to bring them in from the cold, couldn't happen in a vacuum. Society organised along sex-based lines couldn't be simply recategorised, no, a large population group (51% XX) was expected to move over, make their definition porous, extend the collective hand of kindness and inclusion, to this hardcore of men who were deemed most at risk, and needing most help.
At the same time, this blurring of definitions and imposed inclusivity spread from sport and medicine to law and education, the most motivated men worked hard to get the Gender Recognition Act on the statute book, and via Stonewall culture, "social training" and the "trans child" escalated as concepts and then real world consequences as noone in polite society other than a very brave few said anything.
So now we have developing nations male DSDs and "third genders", socially incorporated transvestites/transsexuals, and queer culture first world transgenders in the mix, a political culture in the West frozen into aquiescence and policy drift, and the only light of realism and sanity, an army of women fighting back, with amazing results re SC ruling, banishing self ID into the long grass, and medical and sports bodies tacking back to sanity.
But reading the almost scary analogousness of how health brought in trans and third genders at the expense of women, sport brought in male DSDs at the expense of women, psychiatry brought in transvestites from the cold at the expense of women, you can then see how the most motivated men got the Gender Recognition Act on the statute book to turbo charge the social trans/trans child revolution.
For me, I can now see the past as it travels into the future.

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RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 01/10/2026 03:35

Lacksie · 30/09/2026 23:36

That changes nothing about the point I made which is that there is a practical problem/ incoherence with saying that trans people must always be treated according to birth sex regardless of transition.

The Supreme Court itself explicitly recognised this practical problem when it observed that a trans woman who “presents fully as a woman” may feel that she would provoke more objection entering men’s facilities than women’s, while such trans women may in practice use female facilities without compromising other women’s privacy and dignity.

The judgment also recognised the converse situation: transition may give a trans man such a masculine appearance or attributes that his presence in a particular women’s service could reasonably be considered inappropriate.

I agree that the SC judgement intended to allow for the exclusion of trans women from women's services where proportionate etc. I don't agree that it intended to mandate this always - although that is how it has been widely interpreted.

Edited

I agree that the SC judgement intended to allow for the exclusion of trans women from women's services where proportionate etc. I don't agree that it intended to mandate this always - although that is how it has been widely interpreted.

The judgment allows the exclusion of men from women's services where exclusively women's services are a PMOALA. As TW are, by definition, men to start with and it's impossible to change sex, they are still men. April 2025 saw the SC confirm that even a GRC legal fiction does not apply in this context. Where there is no PMOALA, a single sex service is not justified; exactly what is and isn't a PMOALA is not fully defined, and may yet be more fully defined in case law. But logically, a single sex service cannot be provided to members of both sexes.

Whether a single gender, but not single sex, service is permitted in any circumstances is outside my legal knowledge and understanding. But as gender as I understand it is just an aspect or aspects of personality, I don't see how case law could help in determining whether any other single gender service would be legal. And gender is singularly poorly defined. Could a single gender identity service be legal? Maybe, but we keep being told that "trans woman" is a different gender identity from "cis woman", and these are different from "trans man" and from "cis man". As soon as you combine any two of these, you will no longer have a single gender identity service. And then there's "non binary" (or is there?). It's all nonsense and enrichment for lawyers.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 01/10/2026 03:45

MyAmpleSheep · 01/10/2026 01:23

You’ve missed the point of the Equality Act. It is only ever legal to segregate by sex if the service provider rightly believes there is a legitimate reason to do so, nor is it ever compulsory to segregate a service by sex.

Those two facts drive a coach and horses through your fallacious theory about what’s wrong with the SC decision in FWS.

Edited

nor is it ever compulsory to segregate a service by sex

As far as the Equality Act is concerned, that is correct. But other legislation or regulations can require sex based services, I think? But maybe I don't understand the legal definition of "service".

Shedmistress · 01/10/2026 04:01

Let's not forget that the only reason these men were told to use the women's toilets was to prove they 'passed', which is another way of saying, if women coped without running out screaming, we can go ahead and chop your penis off.

Without even considering why women would not confront or visibly react to a clearly male person in a toilet in the first place.

It wasn't for their safety, or security. It was 'proof' that their dressing up fooled women. But women did know, we just avoided the toilets they were using and made sure we were not alone in there if we could possibly help it. Or stayed til we didn't hear them in there any more.

No woman alone in a toilet with a man wants their faces punched in. So we stayed silent. And that was taken as 'acceptance',

bonfireoftheverities · 01/10/2026 04:04

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 01/10/2026 03:05

DW has more sense than to get into interminable discussions on Mumsnet, but we've always had different coping mechanisms. Mine is to analyse and look for truth. Unfortunately, neither of us can see how to relate to a son who wants us to affirm him as our daughter, which he is undoubtedly not, and who ignores every message unless there is (very occasionally) a compelling practical reason to reply. Which is more important, our integrity which he can rely on, or our "kindness" with no integrity? He knows that if we call him "her" we don't mean it. What good is that to him? He's too intelligent to be fobbed off with pretence. What he is actually asking for is for us to adopt his new religion.

Our grief, and that of other parents, is ambiguous grief. We cannot mourn fully, because there is no resolution. I believe our son is also experiencing grief over the strained or fractured family relationships (we still have a thread of contact). I am actually very angry at the attempt of this ideology to make dissent equal heresy. Only in extreme religious sects have I seen such contempt for dissenters.

We are fortunate to have wonderful support, including from people who disagree with us.

Finally, why do you imply that people should "accept", albeit after a struggle, their child's transition? You are showing that you think affirming trans identities is the righteous thing to do, in other words it is clear that you align with the trans identity religion. I'm a non-believer. I continue to love my son. I do not have to adopt his religion or worldview to do so, and I will not pretend he is my daughter. Who else is prepared to be a link to reality for him, when all the world and her dog goes along with the trans fantasy?

Which is more important, our integrity which he can rely on, or our "kindness" with no integrity?

Beautifully expressed, @RapidOnsetGenderCritic

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 01/10/2026 04:37

Lacksie · 01/10/2026 02:40

I do understand why this is distressing and frightening. But as I said earlier: you don’t have to agree that your son is female, or accept every idea associated with trans politics, to approach what he is telling you with an open mind.

At the moment, you seem to interpret almost everything through the prior conclusion that he has been captured by an ideology. That seems like treating his experience as something to be dismissed or explained away before you have really tried to understand it.

I can understand why that feels unbearable for him and he choses to shut the conversation down. That seems an understandable boundary to draw

If preserving your relationship matters, perhaps the starting point is curiosity rather than starting with the certainty that the things he's telling you about himself are wrong and bad.

Before I knew anyone who claims to be trans, and before my son decided that "trans" describes him, I was aware (from the Guardian mostly) of trans identities. I thought "oh, that's a bit strange, but live and let live." I was introduced to a trans person, and I went along without any real thought with the use of the "preferred pronouns". As I got to know her better, I started to hear her perspective on life, and I noticed some pseudoscience underlying her belief system around her trans identity. I read books by trans authors. They contained incoherent nonsense, as well as some things I could agree with (in particular I could see some prejudice against trans people). I started reading, and listening more widely.

I found a much more coherent theory of sex and gender, some of which matched my feminism-informed move from socially conservative to more liberal views much earlier in my life. (I do not see myself as a feminist, but I have a lot of sympathy for some feminist perspectives.) I started to see how trans identity and queer theory has some massive downsides, as well as being pushed by some very problematic people. At some point during this process, definitely after I had read the trans books and seen some of the issues with Mermaids, my son made his Announcement. We tried to make sure he knew that we still loved and accepted him, and also gently asked questions; he was unable or unwilling to answer them.

Our relationship continued much as before for a while, and then he and his friends started to put subtle pressure on us, without ever actually saying what he wanted us to do, but it became clearer and clearer that we were expected to use his new name and "preferred" pronouns. We struggled with this. Eventually, it came to a head. We were not allowed any more to "deadname" [our living son] or "misgender" him. We were told we should apologise [for transgressing a worldview we did not hold]. There was no understanding of decades of habit, or respect for old fogies set in our ways. We were treated as heretics, and expected to repent of our misdeeds. Well, I for one do not respond well to attempted coercion, and DW quite separately came to the conclusion that we were being manipulated. (I had deliberately tried to avoid telling her about my reading and the conclusions I was coming to – her approach might be more helpful than mine, so as far as possible I didn't want to influence her behaviour, and I was already well aware of the risk of family break up).

So once again you have demonstrated how little you know about the journeys of parents who start off being kind and trying to be supportive, but the ideology pushes a massive wedge into their family, and eventually they discover that even if they had affirmed the transition there's a big chance that they wouldn't have done so enthusiastically enough. There are really destructive forces at work. Queer theory, as far as I understand it, is a destabilising force in society and the boundaries that protect children, women, and often men too, are being dismantled.

I now detest identity politics and despise queer theory. It is built on foundations of sand, so I expect it to collapse, but I fear it will take the structures of society down with it, and we will end up with authoritarian far right or far left government. All because people like me are or were blindly led to being kind without discerning and upholding truth. Any truth worth the name must not be in conflict with physical reality, because we are physical creatures and we all have to accept that reality at some point in our lives, not least as we age.

BridgetYourFortyDaysAreUp · 01/10/2026 04:47

@RapidOnsetGenderCritic

Our grief, and that of other parents, is ambiguous grief. We cannot mourn fully, because there is no resolution.

Thank you for articulating that. This is exactly how it is (for me, with my niece). I think burying the grief is the only way I can cope. I rarely think about the past now because it's too painful and there's no point.

She is not happier now, after "transitioning," and the same problems are there now, that were there before. But, somehow, it was the "right thing to do." I have stopped trying to make sense of it.

As you say, I keep the thread of contact and remain a link to reality. And work to try to end this pernicious movement.

Rollingpinofdoom · 01/10/2026 05:06

FlirtsWithRhinos · 30/09/2026 23:57

Looking forward to a clear non-hand-wavy explaination of what "presents fully as a woman" means. Thouggh I do always wonder which Woman they had in mind.

Usually a female relative or a porn star judging by the ones I’ve seen 🤣🤣🤣

Helleofabore · 01/10/2026 06:35

Lacksie · 30/09/2026 22:31

The Supreme Court, English High Court, and EHRC are all agreed, that trans people should not be forced to use services intended for their own sex, and that failing to provide an appropriate (such as mixed sex or trans-specific) alternative could be illegal discrimination as to gender reassignment

yes they do say that- but I also address the problems with that in my post.

I have now reread your post and no, you didn’t address this in your post.

You made proclamations about how some male people will 100% pass, which is completely a statement of faith in that it is unevidenced and never likely to be true. You then discussed proportionality, yet again this seems to be based on your personal arbitration of what services should and should not be single sex, which is again a series of questions you have so far ignored answering.

Perhaps, rather than continuing to tell people that we are wrong, you could start to answer the questions asked relating to the massive incoherences in your statements that make impossible claims.

It seems that you believe some important foundational aspects of this discussion that really are faith statements because there is no evidence to support them ever being able to be true.

Such as:

Human beings can simply know that they should be the opposite sex.

Some male people 100% will be identified as being female people 100% of the time by 100% female people.

Then comes the point which is a significant weakness in your argument because this then becomes either your personal determination based on your own judgment or a vague statement that is comforting to someone who believes that others are extreme, but clings to a vague belief.

What situations currently where single sex provisions are not needed to be single sex provisions at all?

Plus there is another significant weakness in determining that because a group of male people have made the decision to undergo extreme body modifications, society must accommodate them by removing female single sex provisions.

The example was brought up about substance abuse support. If needed, the option of one on one support was an alternative. Or a mixed sex group could be formed in addition.

These have been alternatives we have been discussing on this board for over a decade.

However, we are seeing from you the vague hand waves of ‘it must be proportionate’ and the implication that there are currently situations that don’t need to be single sex, that over a decade of previous posters also have never properly engaged with.

But I get that they are the comforting words but they become empty platitudes for those who support some male people accessing female single sex provisions because they don’t want to be seen as extreme or don’t want to acknowledge that in some instances they personally prioritise a group of male people’s demands over female people’s needs

Helleofabore · 01/10/2026 06:38

FlirtsWithRhinos · 30/09/2026 22:44

Still chortling at being called Solipsitic by someone who believes a trans person's inner sense of self must define reality for everyone else 😂

Some Solipsists are more equal than others it seems!

I am not sure that you can break through the existentialist barrier with some people. Particularly if they don’t understand that their position is one of faith and belief and not based on any premise that can be supported with evidence at all.

I think this dynamic is another one of those that contributes to this board being considered extreme. The dynamic of others rejecting answers that come across as only a platitude as an answer. Some people find having their personal opinions questioned as being extreme and unkind, particularly when they have their own prejudice about those who are rejecting statements of faith and expecting coherent and evidenced answers.

BackToLurk · 01/10/2026 06:52

Lacksie · 30/09/2026 23:48

I actually support the judgement conclusions in many ways, where I think the Court went badly badly wrong was in failing to clarify that interpreting sex in this way need not imply that trans people must always be excluded from using single sex provision in in alignment with their gender, just that they may be excluded (where there is a legitimate aim and proportionate).

The judgement clearly said that when a service or space was using provisions within EA2010 to exclude one sex, ie operating a system of legal discrimination, then the sex excluded was excluded on the basis of their biological sex.

At the risk of repetition, services, spaces and anything else that uses the Act to exclude one sex must already be confident that the separation is proportionate in order to mitigate the risk of litigation. No organisation can just randomly exclude one sex because they feel like it. To do so would open themselves up to claims of discrimination.

Which brings us back to the questions to you. Even if the law were as you suggest it is or would prefer it to be - not always meaning biological sex.

  1. what specific services or spaces do you think should be separated on the basis of an individual’s gender, rather than their sex.

  2. Why? Remembering that any service for people with, for example, a ‘female gender’ would be for all of them (because that’s how separation works) not just the ones you claim pass so well they would be in danger elsewhere.

  3. (again) How do you determine who is a transperson? What are the criteria for having a female gender identity in a male body, for example?

I’m tempted to add (4) where do non-binary people fit? Do they just pick the service they fancy? But I suspect I’ll have a hard enough time pinning down answers to the first 3.

Helleofabore · 01/10/2026 06:58

Lacksie · 30/09/2026 23:36

That changes nothing about the point I made which is that there is a practical problem/ incoherence with saying that trans people must always be treated according to birth sex regardless of transition.

The Supreme Court itself explicitly recognised this practical problem when it observed that a trans woman who “presents fully as a woman” may feel that she would provoke more objection entering men’s facilities than women’s, while such trans women may in practice use female facilities without compromising other women’s privacy and dignity.

The judgment also recognised the converse situation: transition may give a trans man such a masculine appearance or attributes that his presence in a particular women’s service could reasonably be considered inappropriate.

I agree that the SC judgement intended to allow for the exclusion of trans women from women's services where proportionate etc. I don't agree that it intended to mandate this always - although that is how it has been widely interpreted.

Edited

And again, you mistake the intention of that paragraph.

The SC judgement did say that male people must be treated as if they are male at all times. What it also said is that attempts needed to be made to accommodate them in additional provisions.

The judgement was clear. Those male people removed any female single sex status of any provision they entered.

I believe you are attempting to push that paragraph to do something it was not intended to do. It was not an opening to allow ANY male person into female single sex provisions. Regardless of that male person’s intention to not cause any harm. It also did not then indicate that female single sex provisions be removed to accommodate these male people.

Which then cycles us back to :

What services and provisions that are female single sex provisions should be no longer female single sex provisions?

What services and provisions do you think can allow any male person to access them if they claim to be female?

Helleofabore · 01/10/2026 07:04

Lacksie · 30/09/2026 23:48

I actually support the judgement conclusions in many ways, where I think the Court went badly badly wrong was in failing to clarify that interpreting sex in this way need not imply that trans people must always be excluded from using single sex provision in in alignment with their gender, just that they may be excluded (where there is a legitimate aim and proportionate).

And again, what provisions or services that are currently female single sex provisions should be no longer female single sex provision and/ or open to male people who feel they should have access?

please stop making vague statements and actually engage with the point you are making.

Helleofabore · 01/10/2026 07:11

Sorry. I want to rephrase this

“Human beings can simply know that they should be the opposite sex”

to

Human beings can simply know that they are really the opposite sex.

Helleofabore · 01/10/2026 07:40

Lacksie · 30/09/2026 23:48

I actually support the judgement conclusions in many ways, where I think the Court went badly badly wrong was in failing to clarify that interpreting sex in this way need not imply that trans people must always be excluded from using single sex provision in in alignment with their gender, just that they may be excluded (where there is a legitimate aim and proportionate).

This is where your faith statements fall apart.

Sex is a term defined by a proven biological concept that is fully segregated by the body formation of humans.

The judgement is based on the law that only allows legitimate discrimination. For the provisions relating to sex, it is only allowed to be segregated by sex.

Your arguments have been to reject sex as a clearly defined category because you believe that somehow, in ways that you cannot explain or evidence and it seems that no expert can either, some male people are really female people. (Ie. a statement based on your personal belief and completely unevidenced)

It is on this basis then that you attempt to also then make a statement about some current single sex provisions not needing to exclude all male person.

You rely on this premise that there is a group of people who really are the opposite sex. It is the ‘true trans’ premise. Just because it feels like a moderate position and one that is workable, it isn’t.

How is any position that allows harm to come to female people by male people one of moderation?

It is another version of ‘female people should just accept some negative sexist discrimination for the overall good’. And yet, those pointing this out are the ones who are to be at the least told ‘you are just wrong because I said so’ and at worst vilified any threatened as we have experienced from people who believe we should be decapitated, hung, raped or assaulted.

iwishitwouldstartraining · 01/10/2026 07:43

Lacksie · 30/09/2026 21:22

Parag 217

"Because how does this work? The judgement pointed out that any male person entering a female single sex provision makes that provision mixed sex and no longer single sex"

The judgement did NOT say this: this is how it has been widely interpreted including by the EHRC guidance but that's not the same thing as the court actually saying this itself. They didn't.

Given that the EHRC guidance has undergone judicial review, and been approved by Parliament, I think we can have strong confidence that it complies with the law.

There are exceptions where e.g. opposite sex children under eight can use a single sex service without undermining its purpose, but it is possible to define children under eight and exclude children over eight.

On the other hand it’s very difficult (impossible?) to objectively define gender identity and exclude on that basis. In practice services that describe themselves as trans inclusive invite people to use the facility where they feel most comfortable, so nobody is excluded and the service is mixed sex.

If you would organise things differently who would you exclude and why?

I think that the concept of trans is now so wide that it can’t fit into any framework that enforces boundaries, and you need to address that issue in good faith if you want to change the law.

Lacksie · 01/10/2026 07:51

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 01/10/2026 03:05

DW has more sense than to get into interminable discussions on Mumsnet, but we've always had different coping mechanisms. Mine is to analyse and look for truth. Unfortunately, neither of us can see how to relate to a son who wants us to affirm him as our daughter, which he is undoubtedly not, and who ignores every message unless there is (very occasionally) a compelling practical reason to reply. Which is more important, our integrity which he can rely on, or our "kindness" with no integrity? He knows that if we call him "her" we don't mean it. What good is that to him? He's too intelligent to be fobbed off with pretence. What he is actually asking for is for us to adopt his new religion.

Our grief, and that of other parents, is ambiguous grief. We cannot mourn fully, because there is no resolution. I believe our son is also experiencing grief over the strained or fractured family relationships (we still have a thread of contact). I am actually very angry at the attempt of this ideology to make dissent equal heresy. Only in extreme religious sects have I seen such contempt for dissenters.

We are fortunate to have wonderful support, including from people who disagree with us.

Finally, why do you imply that people should "accept", albeit after a struggle, their child's transition? You are showing that you think affirming trans identities is the righteous thing to do, in other words it is clear that you align with the trans identity religion. I'm a non-believer. I continue to love my son. I do not have to adopt his religion or worldview to do so, and I will not pretend he is my daughter. Who else is prepared to be a link to reality for him, when all the world and her dog goes along with the trans fantasy?

DW has more sense than to get into interminable discussions on Mumsnet

She sounds very wise.

While I understand your logic, I think it rests on one very important mistaken premise — something you present as fact, but which is actually part of your own religion/ ideology/ belief system.

That premise is that being trans is itself no more than a mistaken "ideology" or "belief system”, and that accepting someone’s experience of being trans therefore amounts to “affirming a fantasy”.

while I understand your logic, it rests on one very mistake premise - that you present as a fact , but is actually your form of ideology/ belief system/ religion.

That’s why I’ve spent so much of this thread trying to point out that there is an alternative premise. You don’t have to believe it yourself, but surely you can recognise that it is at least possible.

The alternative is that gender incongruence has nothing to do with ideology. That it is rather a real condition; that for some people it can cause profound psychological distress when ignored or denied, with potentially serious consequences for their mental and physical health; and that there are a range of possible ways of responding to or treating that condition.

Which responses are appropriate should, in my view, be determined by examining the benefits, harms and consequences of each — for the individual and, where relevant, for others — rather than by attachment to some grand theory about the ultimate “Truth” of sex and gender.

I’m glad you had wonderful support, including from people who disagree with you. We need much more of that in the world.

As for why I use the word “accept”, I suppose I consider it part of my duty as a parent to meet my child wherever they are — especially when they are trying to tell me something deeply personal about themselves. Even if I disagree, even if I struggle profoundly to understand it, even if it is painful for me, I would want to hear them with curiosity and empathy, and make an honest and sincere attempt to suspend my own assumptions and judgements long enough to understand what they are actually trying to tell me.

ArabellaScott · 01/10/2026 07:52

Lacksie · 30/09/2026 23:36

That changes nothing about the point I made which is that there is a practical problem/ incoherence with saying that trans people must always be treated according to birth sex regardless of transition.

The Supreme Court itself explicitly recognised this practical problem when it observed that a trans woman who “presents fully as a woman” may feel that she would provoke more objection entering men’s facilities than women’s, while such trans women may in practice use female facilities without compromising other women’s privacy and dignity.

The judgment also recognised the converse situation: transition may give a trans man such a masculine appearance or attributes that his presence in a particular women’s service could reasonably be considered inappropriate.

I agree that the SC judgement intended to allow for the exclusion of trans women from women's services where proportionate etc. I don't agree that it intended to mandate this always - although that is how it has been widely interpreted.

Edited

There are Single Sex Exemptions. There are no Gender Exemptions.

Services can be mixed sex, of course.

ArabellaScott · 01/10/2026 07:55

If the law defines 'woman' to sometimes include men, there is no way to have any single sex services at all.

If the meaning of woman is changed to include men, it becomes meaningless.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 01/10/2026 07:59

And again, to believe that some male bodied people are legitimately really women, or at least legitimately so much more like women than they are other men that they might as well be treated as women, is to believe that womanhood is not a physical characteristic but a mental one. That some ways of thinking, feeling or being are only right for one sex not the other.

That imposes a reductive reframing o herself onto every single woman (and indeed man) on the planet.

I am aghast that Genderists can either not see this, or see it and simply not care.

TheKeatingFive · 01/10/2026 08:03

FlirtsWithRhinos · 01/10/2026 07:59

And again, to believe that some male bodied people are legitimately really women, or at least legitimately so much more like women than they are other men that they might as well be treated as women, is to believe that womanhood is not a physical characteristic but a mental one. That some ways of thinking, feeling or being are only right for one sex not the other.

That imposes a reductive reframing o herself onto every single woman (and indeed man) on the planet.

I am aghast that Genderists can either not see this, or see it and simply not care.

They don’t care.

Its a means of prioritising men’s demands over women’s actual needs, so they leap on it.

Dadalus · 01/10/2026 08:09

If the supreme Court judgment said what Lacksie said it did, why didn't pro trans legal experts, politicians and organisations celebrate the ruling?

ArabellaScott · 01/10/2026 08:09

Yep. Men's wishes prioritised over women's needs.

There are two classes of human. One is larger and stronger and commits 98/99% of all sex crimes and 80% of all violent crimes.

The other is smaller, less physically powerful, and carries the reproductive burden.

The latter is vulnerable to abuse from the former. Laws were created to address this.

We have now created a situation where someone from the first class can say he doesn't want to share with others of his own class, and so must have access to the spaces where the smaller, weaker ones are.

The risks and consequences are obvious.

Pingponghavoc · 01/10/2026 08:09

The idea is that, on balance, a man with a diagnosis of GD should use female only spaces because he'd be happier, the integrity of the male only space would remain, and women may not notice.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 01/10/2026 08:10

I see the shallow misunderstanding of what is meant by "ideology" has reared its head again 🙄

It's weird how Genderists seem to think "ideology" is an insult. It's not. An ideology is simply a moral belief about how society should be arranged. Feminism is an ideology.

The ideological element isn't the existence or not of "real" trans people (that's more theological 😂), it's the belief that society should be restructured to favour gender identity over sex, and the belief that all this involves is to take exactly the resources, rights and provisions we already have based on sex and agree to let some trans people in.

I believe both of those beliefs about how society should be organised are weak, poorly thought through, ad fundamentally sexist. Of course they should be challenged. One does not need to take a position on the existence of "real" trans people to see that demands being made on their behalf are unreasonable.

Lacksie · 01/10/2026 08:10

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 01/10/2026 04:37

Before I knew anyone who claims to be trans, and before my son decided that "trans" describes him, I was aware (from the Guardian mostly) of trans identities. I thought "oh, that's a bit strange, but live and let live." I was introduced to a trans person, and I went along without any real thought with the use of the "preferred pronouns". As I got to know her better, I started to hear her perspective on life, and I noticed some pseudoscience underlying her belief system around her trans identity. I read books by trans authors. They contained incoherent nonsense, as well as some things I could agree with (in particular I could see some prejudice against trans people). I started reading, and listening more widely.

I found a much more coherent theory of sex and gender, some of which matched my feminism-informed move from socially conservative to more liberal views much earlier in my life. (I do not see myself as a feminist, but I have a lot of sympathy for some feminist perspectives.) I started to see how trans identity and queer theory has some massive downsides, as well as being pushed by some very problematic people. At some point during this process, definitely after I had read the trans books and seen some of the issues with Mermaids, my son made his Announcement. We tried to make sure he knew that we still loved and accepted him, and also gently asked questions; he was unable or unwilling to answer them.

Our relationship continued much as before for a while, and then he and his friends started to put subtle pressure on us, without ever actually saying what he wanted us to do, but it became clearer and clearer that we were expected to use his new name and "preferred" pronouns. We struggled with this. Eventually, it came to a head. We were not allowed any more to "deadname" [our living son] or "misgender" him. We were told we should apologise [for transgressing a worldview we did not hold]. There was no understanding of decades of habit, or respect for old fogies set in our ways. We were treated as heretics, and expected to repent of our misdeeds. Well, I for one do not respond well to attempted coercion, and DW quite separately came to the conclusion that we were being manipulated. (I had deliberately tried to avoid telling her about my reading and the conclusions I was coming to – her approach might be more helpful than mine, so as far as possible I didn't want to influence her behaviour, and I was already well aware of the risk of family break up).

So once again you have demonstrated how little you know about the journeys of parents who start off being kind and trying to be supportive, but the ideology pushes a massive wedge into their family, and eventually they discover that even if they had affirmed the transition there's a big chance that they wouldn't have done so enthusiastically enough. There are really destructive forces at work. Queer theory, as far as I understand it, is a destabilising force in society and the boundaries that protect children, women, and often men too, are being dismantled.

I now detest identity politics and despise queer theory. It is built on foundations of sand, so I expect it to collapse, but I fear it will take the structures of society down with it, and we will end up with authoritarian far right or far left government. All because people like me are or were blindly led to being kind without discerning and upholding truth. Any truth worth the name must not be in conflict with physical reality, because we are physical creatures and we all have to accept that reality at some point in our lives, not least as we age.

There was no understanding of decades of habit, or respect for old fogies set in our ways. We were treated as heretics, and expected to repent of our misdeeds.

I understand why that was difficult for you, and also made you angry. That can definitely be a folly of young people- they don't always have the wisdom, maturity and empathy to understand things from outside their enthusiastic perspectives / youth cultures. I can understand why you felt misunderstood and dismissed.

but ultimately I think you need to ask yourself what is worth the cost of the relationship with your child. Is using a preferred name- and even (perhaps through gritted teeth) pronouns when in earshot, truly an unbearable consequence for you? can you not just quietly hold your own beliefs about sex and gender, but still work on your relationship with your son?
you don't have to question and debate if it's painful for you both.
lord knows I have many subjects I treat as such with my own dad - trans issues being one of them!! But also immigration and others.

from my experience, this quiet approach is the one that many dads - who still maintain excellent relationships with their trans children - adopt. To others, they will say "between you and me I dont see them as male/ female etc," but when it comes to their child they try to gently guide them while keeping their opinions on that to themselves. they respect their child's chosen name etc.
mothers, I find, are more likely to come round in the end to seeing things from the perspective of their child - although it usually takes a while to get to that point.

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