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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How dim is Stella Creasey?

202 replies

Sausagenbacon · 07/09/2026 14:56

Today she tweeted about how great the Milad ad Nabi march was in Walthamstow.
Of course, it's segregated and the women get to march afterwards or celebrate in halls.
According to Stella, the Garrick Club is problematic because it only allows men to join. But this is fine.
I know that she is pandering to her constituency, but she really seems to have no awareness.

OP posts:
Walkden · 07/09/2026 19:06

"women covering their heads is a religious requirement that men do not have to comply with"

True - but Men also have religious requirements that women don't have to comply with.

Walkden · 07/09/2026 19:10

"So, you're claiming the Muslim women in question have chosen to segregate themselves. Okaaay. Can you tell us the reason they have chosen to do that?"

Surely segregation of sexes for religious reasons is permitted under equality law and the British values of tolerance and respect, even if you disagree with the beliefs this is based on?

iwishitwouldstartraining · 07/09/2026 19:11

alcovecupboards · 07/09/2026 18:44

Oh no it's very clear that you draw a distinction between the right to single sex spaces and what you call 'sex segregation' and why.

I'm just pointing you towards the relevant legislation. Your posts suggest you aren't aware of it.

Switchnow · 07/09/2026 19:13

LoveRules · 07/09/2026 16:17

Thank you @alcovecupboardsyou have articulated some thoughts I had about this post and it being directed at one individual. It feels like targeted online abuse and inciting hatred which is far from ideal, sophisticated or mature.

Agree. I reported the post before any replies but surprisingly MN is happy to let it stand. I guess they won’t be inviting Stella to do a Q&A any time soon!

Talkinpeace · 07/09/2026 19:13

What happens to Muslim women who refuse to comply with the requirements of men to cover their hair / faces ?

Masa Amini springs to mind

What would happen if a Muslim woman demanded to go into the main part of a mosque ?

alcovecupboards · 07/09/2026 19:13

UnpopularOpinionsIWouldUsuallyKeepToMyself · 07/09/2026 19:01

So, you're claiming the Muslim women in question have chosen to segregate themselves. Okaaay. Can you tell us the reason they have chosen to do that?

Because they choose to participate in a religious culture that requires it. Do you have any evidence that the woman in question have been forced into this segregation?

FlirtsWithRhinos · 07/09/2026 19:14

UnpopularOpinionsIWouldUsuallyKeepToMyself · 07/09/2026 19:01

So, you're claiming the Muslim women in question have chosen to segregate themselves. Okaaay. Can you tell us the reason they have chosen to do that?

Habit, peer pressure, socialisation - same type of reasons that women wear high heels or get their body hair ripped out at the roots really. Society really does a number on women.

Doesn't mean it's ok for men to use us as a proxy battleground for their own culture wars.

Society and the state's role should be to support women within their societies to feel empowered and safe. A side effect of that might be we decide to throw off our veils and/or lipsticks, but if someone genuinely cares about women that comes as a result of empowering us not an end in itself.

alcovecupboards · 07/09/2026 19:14

Talkinpeace · 07/09/2026 19:13

What happens to Muslim women who refuse to comply with the requirements of men to cover their hair / faces ?

Masa Amini springs to mind

What would happen if a Muslim woman demanded to go into the main part of a mosque ?

That depends where they are and the culture of that place. What happens to a wealthy Muslim surgeon in London will be quite different to what happens to an Afghani girl. But you know that - you're just trying to homogenise an entire group for your own ends. Nuance exists.

iwishitwouldstartraining · 07/09/2026 19:16

saraclara · 07/09/2026 18:26

I taught in a school where 60% of children were Muslim. As were most of my teaching assistants. They were strong women and they would absolutely insist if asked (this did come up in conversation occasionally over the twenty years I worked there) that it was their choice to abide by their religion. Most wore hijab, again they said, by choice. Two younger women didn't. One wore jeans and tops at work but changed into more traditional clothing at home. The other was probably the most glamorous and looks obsessed TA I ever had. She followed much of her religion, but not the dress.

Who am I, or any of you, to tell these women how to dress and to insist on sharing the men's space? It's incredibly arrogant of any non-muslim to think that they should, or that Stella Creasy should deny them their MP's presence at one of their festivals.

I think many people just find Creasy incredibly irritating because she seems to understand why sex specific legislation is necessary in some situations (e.g. she has faced sex specific challenges as an MP, she seems to respect the reasons why these women want to be separate from the men at this festival) but apparently lacks the empathy to put herself in the shoes of other women who who require sex specific provision.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 07/09/2026 19:18

Walkden · 07/09/2026 19:06

"women covering their heads is a religious requirement that men do not have to comply with"

True - but Men also have religious requirements that women don't have to comply with.

And do women police and punish men for non compliance in the way the men punish women?

Switchnow · 07/09/2026 19:19

FlirtsWithRhinos · 07/09/2026 17:14

Only as a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

Generally, the aims of women's single sex spaces and resources are legitimate because they protect women from male entitlement and/or create opportunities for women to reduce our economic or cultural disadvantages relative to men.

Generally, the aims of men's single sex spaces and resources are not legitimate because men do not need protection from female entitlement and have economic and cultural advantages relative to women.

When those generalities do not hold, for example the clear legitimate aim of the Men's Sheds movement, the case can easily be made for men-only spaces or provisions.

And sometimes, the need for woman-only provisions to mitigate problems faced by women creates a subsequent need for men-only provisions so men do not lose out even though the men themselves would not be disadvantaged by being with women.

All this is to say, the idea that there's some sort of tit for tat, sauce for the goose is good for the gander moral equivalence to single sex provisions for men and women is to misunderstand why these things exist.

In a world where we were totally equal and equally safe already, it's not that we'd have equal single sex spaces, we'd have none. Single sex spaces exist to solve/mitigate problems of inequality.

(All this said, I'm sure religions get exemptions anyway. Doesn't make it right though).

Even in a world with total equality many women (and men) would prefer to discuss intimate or medical problems with people of the same sex. I’m not sure why anyone would object to single sex spaces in principle.

Walkden · 07/09/2026 19:32

And do women police and punish men for non compliance in the way the men punish women?

I don't think it is policed and punished in the UK and if it were, the police could get involved

I would say for men there would definitely be consequences /punishment -but not in the same way.

UnpopularOpinionsIWouldUsuallyKeepToMyself · 07/09/2026 19:46

alcovecupboards · 07/09/2026 19:13

Because they choose to participate in a religious culture that requires it. Do you have any evidence that the woman in question have been forced into this segregation?

For what reason does it require it?

eta though noted you’ve now moved away from ‘because the women themselves chose it’ position…..

HermioneWeasley · 07/09/2026 19:58

iwishitwouldstartraining · 07/09/2026 18:11

I’m pretty sure that all these ‘cultures’ would argue that they are following the requirements of their religion.

In the case of this event, if segregation isn’t for religious purposes they might have difficulty justifying it.

And indeed have argued in British courts that niqab and other forms of restrictive female dress are requirements of their religion

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 07/09/2026 20:03

Walkden · 07/09/2026 19:32

And do women police and punish men for non compliance in the way the men punish women?

I don't think it is policed and punished in the UK and if it were, the police could get involved

I would say for men there would definitely be consequences /punishment -but not in the same way.

Edited

So you agree that there’s a definite male:female imbalance?

alcovecupboards · 07/09/2026 20:05

UnpopularOpinionsIWouldUsuallyKeepToMyself · 07/09/2026 19:46

For what reason does it require it?

eta though noted you’ve now moved away from ‘because the women themselves chose it’ position…..

Edited

By moved away do you mean it's explicitly stated in the answer of mine that you quote?

PollyNomial · 07/09/2026 20:08

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 07/09/2026 18:17

The Quran specifies different modesty requirements for men and women. You know that. You really can’t be trying to claim it’s nothing to do with Islam?

Almost all Western societies do as well. Can't usually walk down the street topless unless I've missed a big change in culture.

The lines are just drawn in different places.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 07/09/2026 20:21

PollyNomial · 07/09/2026 20:08

Almost all Western societies do as well. Can't usually walk down the street topless unless I've missed a big change in culture.

The lines are just drawn in different places.

Except there’s no religious element so it’s totally different. HTH

PollyNomial · 07/09/2026 20:27

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 07/09/2026 20:21

Except there’s no religious element so it’s totally different. HTH

Both are made up cultural norms. HTH

UnpopularOpinionsIWouldUsuallyKeepToMyself · 07/09/2026 20:44

alcovecupboards · 07/09/2026 20:05

By moved away do you mean it's explicitly stated in the answer of mine that you quote?

Did I say it was?

Back to the question/s -

You - The women in question have voluntarily segregated themselves

So, as it’s voluntary if they decide they don’t want to segregate themselves anymore, would they be allowed to join the male event?

Also You - Because they chose to take part in a religion that requires it

Ok contradicts your earlier assertion, but anyway, for what reason does the religion require it?

Grammarnut · 07/09/2026 21:05

alcovecupboards · 07/09/2026 15:16

I don't think you can argue against some voluntary sex segregation and simultaneously be demanding the right to single sex spaces. Everyone is entitled to single sex spaces - even if they are religious men.

Well, if they want religious sex segregation, then the men can celebrate in halls where no-one will see them and the women can live it up with a street procession. Why not?
But one can argue that sex segregation in religion is wrong and still back single sex spaces and sex segregation in toilets, refuges, sports, clubs for Lesbians, changing rooms. In those cases there is a specific reason for being sex segregated. In toilets and changing rooms it is dignity, safety and comfort. In sports fairness and safety. In Lesbian groups it is because people are attracted by a person's sex and Lesbians are same sex attracted (and gay men ditto) so it is pointless and intrusive to demand that the opposite sex may attend.
If you want sex segregated clubs that is ok, too. That's a choice and sports centres can supply sex segregated gym and swimming sessions as well as mixed sex. But sex segregation in religions tends to be connected to ideas about women most of us find unacceptable and there is also no option not to sex segregate - the women cannot join in with the men's celebration.

BackToLurk · 07/09/2026 21:08

Grammarnut · 07/09/2026 21:05

Well, if they want religious sex segregation, then the men can celebrate in halls where no-one will see them and the women can live it up with a street procession. Why not?
But one can argue that sex segregation in religion is wrong and still back single sex spaces and sex segregation in toilets, refuges, sports, clubs for Lesbians, changing rooms. In those cases there is a specific reason for being sex segregated. In toilets and changing rooms it is dignity, safety and comfort. In sports fairness and safety. In Lesbian groups it is because people are attracted by a person's sex and Lesbians are same sex attracted (and gay men ditto) so it is pointless and intrusive to demand that the opposite sex may attend.
If you want sex segregated clubs that is ok, too. That's a choice and sports centres can supply sex segregated gym and swimming sessions as well as mixed sex. But sex segregation in religions tends to be connected to ideas about women most of us find unacceptable and there is also no option not to sex segregate - the women cannot join in with the men's celebration.

Edited

What’s less difficult to argue is that sex segregation in religion is unproblematic, but if those same religious women wanted a single sex space or service with no transwomen then they’re nasty bigots. Which is essentially Ms Creasy’s position.

alcovecupboards · 07/09/2026 21:11

UnpopularOpinionsIWouldUsuallyKeepToMyself · 07/09/2026 20:44

Did I say it was?

Back to the question/s -

You - The women in question have voluntarily segregated themselves

So, as it’s voluntary if they decide they don’t want to segregate themselves anymore, would they be allowed to join the male event?

Also You - Because they chose to take part in a religion that requires it

Ok contradicts your earlier assertion, but anyway, for what reason does the religion require it?

What I actually wrote was: "Because they choose to participate in a religious culture that requires it." If you're going to quote me - please be accurate. You're hopelessly out of your depth here.

Arran2024 · 07/09/2026 21:13

alcovecupboards · 07/09/2026 21:11

What I actually wrote was: "Because they choose to participate in a religious culture that requires it." If you're going to quote me - please be accurate. You're hopelessly out of your depth here.

"Choose" is doing a lot of lifting there!

alcovecupboards · 07/09/2026 21:14

Grammarnut · 07/09/2026 21:05

Well, if they want religious sex segregation, then the men can celebrate in halls where no-one will see them and the women can live it up with a street procession. Why not?
But one can argue that sex segregation in religion is wrong and still back single sex spaces and sex segregation in toilets, refuges, sports, clubs for Lesbians, changing rooms. In those cases there is a specific reason for being sex segregated. In toilets and changing rooms it is dignity, safety and comfort. In sports fairness and safety. In Lesbian groups it is because people are attracted by a person's sex and Lesbians are same sex attracted (and gay men ditto) so it is pointless and intrusive to demand that the opposite sex may attend.
If you want sex segregated clubs that is ok, too. That's a choice and sports centres can supply sex segregated gym and swimming sessions as well as mixed sex. But sex segregation in religions tends to be connected to ideas about women most of us find unacceptable and there is also no option not to sex segregate - the women cannot join in with the men's celebration.

Edited

You're welcome to join that religious culture and make that argument. No-one's stopping you. I would no rather be Muslim than a Christian trad wife - fortunately no-one's forcing me to do either. I simply don't judge those that choose to be either of those things. It is their decision.