Most 'trans' people are non binary - EU survey

[WrongKindOfFeminist]

https://tgeu.org/tgeu-publishes-trans-human-rights-realities-and-resilience-in-europe/

'65.5% of trans respondents identify as non-binary or gender diverse, marking this as the fastest-growing segment of the trans community (up from 51% in 2019)'

'The EU LGBTIQ Survey III report presents data from 30,627 trans people (trans women, trans men and non-binary and gender diverse people), which represent 30.6% of the total sample (99,972). This is a significant rise from 20,933 trans respondents in the previous LGBTI II Survey in 2019. The increase in trans respondents is especially notable considering that overall, there were almost 40,000 fewer respondents compared to the previous survey. '

I was surprised by this. Interested to see how 'non binary' evolves.

Can you answer my question, please? I meant it honestly.

What is it that makes you non binary, and me not non binary?

To put it another way, who is NOT non binary? What does it mean to NOT be non binary?

Huh. Me, I guess? I care to be seen as one sex, so I suppose that makes me binary?

And "transitioning", by definition, is a binary-based action, since you transition from one sex-based gender presentation to the other.

Which only goes to show how nonsensical this whole trans umbrella is, if binary trans and NBs are all gathered under it.

It works if one entirely disregards biological sex, I suppose? If one posits everything based on 'gender identity'.

But how is this related to sex at all, in that case?

'Gender identity' is personality, nothing to do with sex, body, or biology. It's feelings and thoughts and ideas, yes?

I can certainly grasp that people don't feel that socially constructed gender stereotypes don't accord with their internal sense of self.

Because OF COURSE invented and arbitrary 'gender' stereotypes don't chime with internal feelings.

My body is sexed, I experience life as a woman every day, all my life. Always will.

But nobody has an 'innate' feeling of their sex. Or at least, if they did, there would be absolutely no way whatsoever of knowing, because we cannot experience outside of our own experience.

We can make guesses, which may be more or less informed or accurate, based on observation, assumption, and the say-so of others, but we simply cannot know what it is like to be the opposite sex, or to be other than the sex we are born. It's quite literally impossible. Totally and utterly.

@WrongKindOfFeminist , exactly.

And my body will remain sexed if I were asleep, under anaesthetic, without a 100% functioning brain due to injury or illness, or in a coma. And once I am dead my corpse will still have a sex.

Looking forward to the answer

And if everyone is technically non binary who has not declared an opposite sex identity or the rare few who claim to have a gender identity, what does that mean to society ?

I'm talking more about potential trolls saying they are trans and speaking for their community as if all trans people are dishonest, rude and hateful and won't accept same-sex attracted people, anyone who's questioning etc, or keep changing what they say "trans" is. I know they aren't but there seems to be a concerted effort from some quarters to paint that picture... I'd just be wary.

Obviously we have some visitors that seem to use the same usernames elsewhere and are like this everywhere but it's then easy for people with too much time on their hands to copy them.

But nobody has an 'innate' feeling of their sex. Or at least, if they did, there would be absolutely no way whatsoever of knowing, because we cannot experience outside of our own experience.

I think that may actually be the problem: all those NBs and others don't actually understand what it's like to be trans, and so think what they feel is similar when it's really, really not.

You see it happening all the time with other conditions:

• "Oh, I think I'm depressed!" when they are sad.
• "Oh, I think I'm autistic!" when they have a quirk or two.
• "Oh, I think I've got ADHD!" when they are late once in a while.

People self-diagnose with everything under the sun, not realising that what they feel is utterly nothing compared to what people who actually have the condition are experiencing.

The criteria for self-diagnosing with being trans have expanded so much, they now include pretty much all of humanity.

• "You don't like the limitations imposed on you by your sex? You're trans!"
• "You enjoy adding elements of the opposite sex's gender presentation to your own presentation? You're trans!"

But that's not what being trans was originally about, not even close. Except the original trans people have been shut out into just one possible expression of being trans, and "trans" has lost all meaning - which is stupid, because you need clear definitions when you're asking for rights and privileges, but heh, logic is not TRAs' forte.

' potential trolls saying they are trans and speaking for their community as if all trans people are dishonest, rude and hateful and won't accept same-sex attracted people, anyone who's questioning etc, or keep changing what they say "trans" is.'

I have no idea what or who you are talking about? You mean you think people are 'pretending to be trans' and making nasty posts?

Like the people at the Trans Pride march with the posters inciting violence towards women?

[Edit - response to poppsocks]

I can see what you mean.

The issue probably arises from around the time 'gender incongruence' was depathologised, in that case. Because 'dysphoria', as a clinical diagnosis, is no longer required, just an 'incongruence' with societal stereotypes. Which as you say, can apply to just about anyone.

What is the difference between 'non binary' and 'gender non conforming'?

I cant see a meaningful difference.

Why make a new term up? Just a fashion thing?

I guess because gender non-conforming sounds like a thing you choose to do, while non-binary sounds like a thing you are and have no choice about.

For some strands of activist, identity trumps choice. People who cause harm because their stars force them to are really the victims, and people who object are in the wrong because they are lucky enough not to feel the pain that drives their tormentors to hurt them.

It’s curious how even actors who identity as non binary, eg Bella Ramsey, Emma Darcy, are always cast as characters of their actual sex . Even casting directors know…

That makes sense.

So it shifts responsibility from a person's active involvement in society - rejection of binary stereotypes etc, to a focus on an individual's inner feeling of not aligning with/wanting to reject stereotypes?

Interesting to see where agency and power is then located. And hte shift in dynamic, from a person who is co creating the world along with society, to a person who is in their own bubble or cloud, with their own 'identity', unmoored and unconnected to anything material or any interaction with the world/others.

Nonbinary is an utterly frustrating claim, to me. It's an attempt to deny one's embodied existence, to pretend that by using magic words we can escape life's reality.

We are binary sexed mammals, male or female, living in an unequal and difficult world, and we all die in the end.

For more motivational quotes, dial 7689 and ask for The Wrong Kind.

I think there has also been a lot of borrowing from the Gay rights movement so if sexual attraction is not just innate, but valid because it is innate, then the same must be true of gender identity.

Ironically, this seems to have been accompanied by a campaign to insist that sexuality is not innate.

Because I am me.and you are you.

It would suit me not to be nb if I'm honest. The upheaval it's going to cause when I come out to my wider family (immediate family could not give a damn, which was comfortingly hilarious) is something I already watched my son go through.

Non-binary people like me get all kinds of shit, which can't possibly be excused as 'reasonable concerns'. It's just bigotry. Still, I'm used to that as a disabled person, everyone's got a theory about you and unwanted 'advice'.

But I just can't deny it's who I am.

It's not you, and that's fine.

I can't explain it because it's intrinsic to me. If you don't feel it, you don't know how it feels. Accepting that other people are different really is a thing.

Accepting you may be wrong about other people is also a thing.

Your "non-binary" relies on your assumption everyone else feels a binary.

Most people just understand they have a physical sex, and that their personality forms in part through their experiences of being that sex. It is you that imposes the binary label and the belief you know what others feel.

Right. So you can't explain it, won't even attempt to explain it, but are happy to label others "bigots" for not understanding.

Happy to tell people to educate themselves, although not prepared to even try to put into words what NB means. But content to make assumptions about everybody else.

That's really weak.

'I can't explain it because it's intrinsic to me. If you don't feel it, you don't know how it feels. '

But what does it mean?

If it's intrinsic to you, and nobody else can understand it or know how it feels, that is describing YOU and you alone. Presumably you have something in common with other nonbinary people? What is that?

I think you can't deny it because you can't even define it.

If it's an arbitrary and meaningless label, then nobody can deny it or disprove it.

If it has meaning as a descriptor then one has to be able to explain/describe/define it.

Otherwise it may as well be florbertigordle.

And if a term is used to describe a group of people then logically they must share some characteristics

Otherwise it's not a meaningful category, anymore than say, I don't know, 'fluctuating' is a category of weather.

As far as I can work out, this doesn't involve anything more than asking them to use different third person pronouns.

They might think you are a little self absorbed, but it's not clear why it would cause more upheaval than e.g. telling them you have joined the Conservative Party or no longer eat bread.

I can't explain it because it's intrinsic to me. If you don't feel it, you don't know how it feels. Accepting that other people are different really is a thing.

Completely agree, but you are rather confirming that if NB is 'trans', 'trans' no longer has any objective meaning.

I can't explain it because it's intrinsic to me. If you don't feel it, you don't know how it feels.

We've been hearing this for years. The old "we can't explain what trans is to people who aren't trans because it's not possible to understand unless you actually are trans". And then go on to say that children can understand that they 'are trans' almost from birth.

So it's simultaneously so complex that most adults (who are not trans/NB) can't possibly understand what it is, and so simple that even babies can understand it if it applies to them.

And even though it's such an individual experience (which is why it can't be explained or described), we're supposed to believe that all these different people who are saying they have this inner feeling are all feeling the same thing.

None of it makes sense.