Supporting women in prison.

[dylexicdementor11]

I’m delighted to see so many mumsnetters are concerned over the welfare of women in prison. However, I thought it might be good to point out that there are many organizations doing incredible work within women’s prisons.
If you have the time to engage with the it would be wonderful if you could support them and find more information about the issues women are actually facing in prison.

Here are some links that may point you in the right direction.

https://www.womeninprison.org.uk/

Your fight is against trans women

Interesting framing: "fighting for women's rights" = "fighting against trans women".

You are really starting to show your true colours now. Keep going.

Mind, we have seen this so often before that it has a tedious inevitability, like watching a slow-motion clown car crash.

Well you keep proving it by speaking about what you want to do for prisoners, rather than what they'd like you to do for them.

Most prisoners don't have the experience of trans women as fellow inmates. Who may exploit them around showering in various ways are staff, male and female, as well as other inmates. That is what makes their conditions unbearable and abusive.

That is why I am more focused on fighting things like individual privacy when showering and changes to how prisons are governed. These are the things that negatively affect nearly every prisoner.

Hopefully, Mumsnet will not take too much longer to scrutinise and approve my earlier post at 01:13 today.

In that post I explain my experience of what women prisoners said that they would like me to do for them, which was what my role involved as member of an Independent Monitoring Board for a women's prison.

Suffice it to say that you have not once on this thread mentioned the single most common cause of trauma and distress reported by almost all women in the prison with which I was involved.

I would remind you of your earlier blatant denial of well-reported issues adversely affecting women prisoners due to men being incarcerated with them. This suggests that your primary motivation is advocacy for the interests of men who wish to be incarcerated with women:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5552676-supporting-women-in-prison?reply=153461352

Interesting that you say that you were incarcerated at Bronzefield, the current focus of protests against the incarceration of men in women's prisons. Just a coincidence, I am sure.

There arent that many women's prisons. I was there shortly after it opened.

But due to capacity and woeful lack of investment that is not currently an imminent option. So why not take the quick win and at least ensure no men sharing a cell/showers/etc with vulnerable women?

I’m mystified at your determined myopia on this.

I know how prisons work. Every woman in that prison will know there is a violent male rapist within the prison and if they are the unlucky chosen ones they or he could get moved into close proximity.

Careful, your agenda is showing.

There arent that many women's prisons.

One is too many.

Thanks for that information - obviously Flexible accidentally missed the women you have spoken to and even though he or she knows they exist, he or she is determined to ignore their voices so I’m going to take your report as being more reliable and fact based and backed by facts that even Flex admits are true.

I guess this discussion highlights a very important point. With all of flexible’s vast knowledge of every female prisoner, when he or she claims that there are at least 4 men still in the female state, despite the law saying they shouldn’t be - I think that is a concern.

It seems that even though the law is on our side, even HMP still can’t follow it - this is a serious issue. I am going to check which women’s organisations are running monitoring and campaigns on this and see if they need any more support. I think we need to redouble our efforts to cut through the lies and cover ups at high level which are allowing this situation to continue.

Nice work, Bosky. Pretty transparent agenda both here and on other threads.

Absolutely. FWS had to take the Scottish government to court (again) to force them to move all the men into the male estate.

I’m not mystified at all. I do think the scolding is bizarre, no one cares here that this person disapproves of our priorities and we’re not in any way accountable to them. So imagine it’s just some personal impulse to smear and insult women here.

'everything I started in prison has paved the way for what I am now. From entering the Koestler Awards in prison, I am now in my second year as a judge. From Level 1 qualifications, to studying with the Prisoners’ Education Trust, I now have a Master’s degree in Criminal Justice and Criminology from the University of Leeds'

I wonder what the outcome would have been if she had gone to a men's prison.

It’s a balance though isn’t it? Vetting should be thorough, women should be empowered to speak up if something is wrong, and educated about what’s wrong if they have had poor experiences. But ultimately a volunteer in any capacity should be independent of prison staff, and therefore being supervised defeats the object. Very few male volunteers in women’s prisons anyway.

Very possibly the same - all these opportunities are available (in fact more widely available) for men in men’s prisons.

A more interesting question might be whether these opportunities would have been as available to a woman presenting woman in the women’s estate. The person in the article is an unusually outspoken and popular example of a trans man in a women’s prison. On the one hand, why shouldn’t they be enabled to succeed. On the other, to what extent did their trans status outshine other women who could have benefited from the same leg up.

CertainSenseOfLiberty · 10/07/2026 13:29
A friend of mine is a prison visitor at a women's prison. Every time he talks about it I am shocked at the lack of safeguarding - he gets given keys on arrival and wanders to the room without a guard, he does the visiting without a guard in the room - he's radio trained so at least someone in the room can call for help if required. OK so he's never alone 1 on 1 with a prisoner but sometimes all the volunteers on that day are men.

Lexibletheflexible · Today 02:41
The issue is the procedure, not the individual. Women do report in large numbers that these types of scenarios lead to their exploitation. Sadly they don't always realise that the situation is/was exploitative and might report something like this as a consensual affair with a staff member/volunteer.

Women do report in large numbers that these types of scenarios lead to their exploitation.

This is a bold claim. Please provide evidence to support evidence of the "large numbers".

Sadly they don't always realise that the situation is/was exploitative and might report something like this as a consensual affair with a staff member/volunteer.

A similarly bold claim and somewhat surprising as I do not recall any official reports of "large numbers" of women in prison reporting that they have engaged in "a consensual affair with a staff member/volunteer."

"Large numbers" make me think "hundreds". Yet there are only about 4,000 women in prison at any one time with about 5,000 - 6,000 admissions annually (including women imprisoned on short sentences and/or remand more than once).

What is your ball-park figure for "large numbers" and how did you arrive at this estimate?

You also refer to male "staff members/volunteers". Do you mean "staff members" or are you actually referring to prison officers?

Whatever, although there is obviously under-reporting via official channels and then under-reporting of investigations and found cases in the press, HMPPS report that a very small number of prison officers have been accused of "inappropriate conduct" (1% - 3% per annum) with "sexual misconduct" forming a small subset of those cases.

There have been criminal prosecutions of a handful of cases over the past 20 years where a prison officer has engaged in "inappropriate conduct" including "sexual misconduct" with more than one prisoner.

Recent cases reported in the press involve individual female prison officers engaged in inappropriate and sexual misconduct with male prisoners (plural).

With both male and female prison officers, "inappropriate conduct" including "sexual misconduct" has been attributed primarily to:

• recruitment and vetting issues (it is hard to recruit and retain prison officers, particularly to work in the female estate due to the additional emotional challenges of exposure to trauma and self harm which are greater in women's prisons; cursory interviewing and substandard vetting)
• retention issues (a significant proportion of prison officers are inexperienced; most problems occur with officers who have less than 3 years experience)
• training and supervision issues (related to persistent staff shortages)

Inexperienced male prison officers (and prison visitors) are particularly vulnerable or prone to misconduct in women's prisons. Minor boundary violations (initiated from either side) can escalate over time into gross misconduct.

The starting point for officers might be predatory in some cases but in others it might be lack of professional distancing due to over-empathising with a prisoner or susceptibility to grooming by prisoners seeking access to favours, drugs, preferential treatment, etc.

All sorts of measures are taken to ameliorate the problem of male prison officers serving in women's prisons.

IMHO that is the only truthful framing: employment of male prison officers in women's prisons is a PROBLEM.

Their presence does not, in general, benefit women prisoners so they should not be there.

They were never intended to be there and we have anti-discrimination and equalities legislation to "thank" for the abolition of the principle that only female prison officers should be employed in women's prisons.

It once was but is no more a Genuine Occupational Qualification (GOQ) for prison officers in women's prisons to be female. As with so much else with which we are familiar, the change was achieved by stealth.

Yet another instance of the road to hell being paved with good intentions:

The creation of mixed-sex prisons by stealth
There are no single sex prisons in the UK anymore.
Jo Phoenix, 25 April 2023

Extract:

Sex as a genuine occupational qualification

The issue of the placement of male prisoners who identify as women into the female prison estate brings into sharp relief the differences between men and women in terms of the crimes they commit, the links between women’s sex-based inequalities and questions of managing the risk of predatory males who may also identify as women.

For me, the remaining unanswered question is much wider: has the original need for single-sex prisons somehow disappeared over the two centuries since 1823 Gaol Act?

Admittedly, part of the justification for the 1823 Goal were highly sexist ideas of women’s fragility and corruptibility, combined with a desire to reform female prisoners according to equally sexist notions of respectability and decency. But that was only part of the justification.

The other part was a correct desire to ensure female prisoners’ safety and security and the challenges that mixed-sex prisons create vis-a-vis pregnancy, sexual harassment and sexual violence.

Perhaps it is time to return to a question about whether sex is a genuine occupational qualification when it comes to working in prisons and not just take for granted that the only problem of mixed-sex prisons is the problem of having a mixed-sex prisoner population?

Full article:
https://www.crimeandjustice.org.uk/creation-mixed-sex-prisons-stealth

As far as I am aware, there is no active campaign by any organisation in the UK to make women's prisons truly single-sex again.

There is a good argument advanced in the submission by @KeepPrisonsSingleSex to the Women and Equalities Select Committee Consultation on Reform of the GRA.

In this, Kate Coleman is referring to prisoners rather then prison officers when she argues for "all males" to be excluded from women's prisons under the provisions of the Gender Recognition Act 2004.

However, her reasoning applies equally well for a GOQ for female-only prison officers in women's prisons:

Written evidence submitted by Keep Prisons Single Sex [GRA0826]

6.2.3 From the perspective of the rehabilitative function of prison, we believe that the evidence demonstrates that it is a proportionate means to a legitimate aim to exclude all males in accordance with the Act.

6.3.6 We believe that evidence of female prisoners’ experiences of male violence and their vulnerability demonstrates that it is a proportionate means to a legitimate aim to exclude males in accordance with the Act.

https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/16850/pdf/

From what you have said already, Lexibletheflexible, I assume that this is a campaign that you would support?

Let us just get those remaining male prisoners out of women's prisons first!

As long as we don’t mistakenly assume that removal of all men from women’s prisons will mean removing the issue of abuse and exploitation, I agree with returning it to a sex exempt occupation. I have witnessed some terrifying behaviour by female prison officers, though usually not sexually motivated.

Allisnotlost1 I agree 100%.

I have witnessed some terrifying behaviour by female prison officers, though usually not sexually motivated.

Similarly, I have witnessed and been subjected to some terrifying behaviour by female doctors and nurses, including physical and sexual assault.

I am also aware that some female Prison Governors have introduced and overseen well-meaning regimes that were extremely damaging to women prisoners.

That said, it would be a useful experiment unlikely to harm women prisoners if some single-sex prisons were piloted on the women's estate. As the prisons vary so much, they could be matched for experimental models and controls as they are matched now for routine comparisons of, for example, rates of self harm.

Yes, it would be interesting to see what impact that had. A women only space can feel really special. Have you ever been to Clean Break? One of my favourite places.