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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 4

1000 replies

myladydisdainisyetliving · 02/07/2026 09:58

Previous thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5549122-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-3

TT substack: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

I will also note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
29
Cailleach1 · 03/07/2026 09:14

Not that I think that might have been the impediment, or the only impediment, to the advancement of ED or ST. You still have to take part in competitions. And interviews where people will be able to assess your capability/suitability.

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 03/07/2026 09:14

👋 Hi Allies, I trust you're reporting back all of the things that have been said about the ET and the people involved.

Iamnotalemming · 03/07/2026 09:17

Finally caught up from yesterday! Random thoughts I had during reading:

● Has AL taken inspiration / heart from NC? Did they have a counsel to counsel chat after the previous day about working in their clients' shared interests? Either way, he has bucked up and it was good to see.

● I want to make cheese scones if I have time today.

● My first registration took 18 MONTHS!!! I was, at the time, patient and understanding about an organisation working under cuts and with a backlog. Now I am wondering if that period would have been shorter without all that lanyarding going on.

● ED 100% had help from a lawyer writing that WS, which seemed clearly designed to undermine or develop nuance around Forstater. I would put money on her having a long discussiom about it with someone confident but wrong about the law. Would explain why she felt able to so glibly disagree with NC.

● I want what Beetle is smoking. I suspect it makes tribunal watching less painful.

Thanks again to Team C&P

WeareBeyondSupplementalBundles · 03/07/2026 09:18

myladydisdainisyetliving · 03/07/2026 09:10

Morning all, I’m not going to be able to commit to c&p today, sorry. My employer is expecting me to actually attend some meetings, outrageous. Perhaps I should apply for a job in the CS.

Speaking of which, I would advise anyone who does work for the CS to be very careful in revealing any information about the claimant and their witness that is available to you via work. We’ve already seen from evidence that they are aware of MN, I wouldn’t be surprised to know that the same “allies” that provided evidence to ST about the MN thread in evidence are also reading these threads. In fact, I’d be surprised if they aren’t.

Nah these two are finished. There are 450k people in the Civil Service.

Tweedledum and Tweedledee will find themselves shunted off to do no harm with their access to groups and online platforms reduced.

Alexander and Naomi have given their managers the tools to do them for harassment if any of this continues.

I would also expect formal complaints against agender.

Well done to the CS posters!

Rightsraptor · 03/07/2026 09:19

ED is very good a giving the impression she's higher up the totem pole than she actually is. She mentioned 'her data people/team" yesterday when being questionned about absence of statistics.

It's all just smoke and mirrors.

borntobequiet · 03/07/2026 09:20

Cailleach1 · 03/07/2026 09:06

I think lack of qualifications can also be a problem to advancement. You can advance so far on your merit, but higher up grades require educational qualifications too. I think some ambitious people (if they hadn’t university degree) in the CS who realised they needed these, used to do a degree by night, or with orgs like OU in order to be eligible for advancement.

Far easier to find a lucrative grift that as a bonus enables one to bully and harass people you don’t agree with.

WeareBeyondSupplementalBundles · 03/07/2026 09:20

Iamnotalemming · 03/07/2026 09:17

Finally caught up from yesterday! Random thoughts I had during reading:

● Has AL taken inspiration / heart from NC? Did they have a counsel to counsel chat after the previous day about working in their clients' shared interests? Either way, he has bucked up and it was good to see.

● I want to make cheese scones if I have time today.

● My first registration took 18 MONTHS!!! I was, at the time, patient and understanding about an organisation working under cuts and with a backlog. Now I am wondering if that period would have been shorter without all that lanyarding going on.

● ED 100% had help from a lawyer writing that WS, which seemed clearly designed to undermine or develop nuance around Forstater. I would put money on her having a long discussiom about it with someone confident but wrong about the law. Would explain why she felt able to so glibly disagree with NC.

● I want what Beetle is smoking. I suspect it makes tribunal watching less painful.

Thanks again to Team C&P

Edited

Yes Alex works at Naomi’s chambers. First gender woo trial.

I think seeing the regional and sexier discrimination caught him off guard. He wised up and started talking about orthodoxy. He did well.

ED probably had Cleo Lunt and Lewis Silkin help but god it was an embarrassingly cringe Tink is so strong I just hold his manly hands and also Zionism is coming for us. Doesn’t read half as clever when she was off harassing race groups.

Rightsraptor · 03/07/2026 09:23

I think we might know of a barrister (or two) who could be described as confident but wrong about the law, @Iamnotalemming. One of them has even graced these pages from time to time.

rotoscope · 03/07/2026 09:26

https://x.com/JustMisogyny/status/2072453638958493923

"Samantha Tempest" is an anagram of "A man attempts she".

Hyenana · 03/07/2026 09:30

Regarding the connection between 'trans' and 'intersex', there is a current reddit discussion on whether trans people change their sex or their gender (they really can't seem to agree on that one 🙄) where the op claims that a trans person on HRT is similar to a "intersex person of our chosen sex".
So for example ST is similar to ED because they both rely on exogenous hormones?
But it also means that 'intersex' people actually belong to one sex, which kinda denies ED's identity...
She should maybe make a survey of her a:gender members to find out how widespread that awful interphobia is.

You can change your sex. And most of us do.
We go on HRT, we go from MALE to FEMALE, or FEMALE to MALE. We have more in common with an intersex person of our chosen sex than an endosex person of our birth sex.
www.reddit.com/r/MtF/comments/1ug9cf6/nobodys_saying_trans_people_change_their_sex_just/

StellaAndCrow · 03/07/2026 09:31

nicepotoftea · 02/07/2026 17:41

If a colleague were to express their belief that "biological sex matters for both women and men in our everyday lives, including for our rights and needs in the workplace", would this create an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment for you?

75% Yes
17% I'm not sure
5% No
3% a combination of the three options.

Maybe it's just me, but doesn't this survey rather undermine their case? Are they not aware of things like maternity leave?

5% Yes
17% I'm not sure
5% No
3% a combination of the three options.

I'm not a statistician (but I know what a survey is) but I'm not sure how helpful it is to include people who give more than one reply when the options are yes/no/not sure.

EmpressDomesticatednottamed · 03/07/2026 09:35

Important question.
Did the NI contingent find a scone pronounciation map that applies to where they live?
I am very sorry the I linked to missed you all out!

Hyenana · 03/07/2026 09:36

StellaAndCrow · 03/07/2026 09:31

5% Yes
17% I'm not sure
5% No
3% a combination of the three options.

I'm not a statistician (but I know what a survey is) but I'm not sure how helpful it is to include people who give more than one reply when the options are yes/no/not sure.

It wasn't very helpful to allow more than one answer when the options are yes/no/not sure. Sloppy survey design in the first place.

Boiledbeetle · 03/07/2026 09:37

@Iamnotalemming

Join me in the library at the Bluestocking. You'll find me by the window, I'm fairly easy to spot.

Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 4
WrongKindOfFeminist · 03/07/2026 09:39

Hyenana · 03/07/2026 09:30

Regarding the connection between 'trans' and 'intersex', there is a current reddit discussion on whether trans people change their sex or their gender (they really can't seem to agree on that one 🙄) where the op claims that a trans person on HRT is similar to a "intersex person of our chosen sex".
So for example ST is similar to ED because they both rely on exogenous hormones?
But it also means that 'intersex' people actually belong to one sex, which kinda denies ED's identity...
She should maybe make a survey of her a:gender members to find out how widespread that awful interphobia is.

You can change your sex. And most of us do.
We go on HRT, we go from MALE to FEMALE, or FEMALE to MALE. We have more in common with an intersex person of our chosen sex than an endosex person of our birth sex.
www.reddit.com/r/MtF/comments/1ug9cf6/nobodys_saying_trans_people_change_their_sex_just/

Crikey.

'Nobody's saying trans people change their SEX, just their gender."
Venting
No. That's wrong, stop spreading that misinformation.

You cannot change your gender. Your gender is an immutable part of your identity, your Ego, your ID, your soul. You can't change that. What you're born with, you're fucking STUCK with. That's why conversion therapy doesn't fuckin work! We transition so that our bodies match our gender.

You can change your sex. And most of us do.'

It is very helpful to have people lay this out so clearly.

Because it's insane.

EmpressDomesticatednottamed · 03/07/2026 09:49

WrongKindOfFeminist · 03/07/2026 09:39

Crikey.

'Nobody's saying trans people change their SEX, just their gender."
Venting
No. That's wrong, stop spreading that misinformation.

You cannot change your gender. Your gender is an immutable part of your identity, your Ego, your ID, your soul. You can't change that. What you're born with, you're fucking STUCK with. That's why conversion therapy doesn't fuckin work! We transition so that our bodies match our gender.

You can change your sex. And most of us do.'

It is very helpful to have people lay this out so clearly.

Because it's insane.

Interesitng that there is a switcheroo from what used to be of course we know we can't change sex, we know the difference between sex and gender, it's you people who are ignorant we are talking about gender dontcha know.

Makes me wonder if it's a reaction to Forstater because everything on the GC side has to be evil and wrong. It's usually fairly clear when the arguments and words women use are taken up and switched around as they try and use them against us, usually badly and with another reconstruction of the fragile framwork that is relied on.

Iamnotalemming · 03/07/2026 09:51

@Boiledbeetle is that a single malt there as well?? I'll be in later!

Boiledbeetle · 03/07/2026 09:53

Iamnotalemming · 03/07/2026 09:51

@Boiledbeetle is that a single malt there as well?? I'll be in later!

I think we'll all be glugging the single malt before lunch!

Iamnotalemming · 03/07/2026 09:54

Rightsraptor · 03/07/2026 09:23

I think we might know of a barrister (or two) who could be described as confident but wrong about the law, @Iamnotalemming. One of them has even graced these pages from time to time.

Yes! We have (for my sins) a mutual connection on LinkedIn who is fond of retweeting said barrister's quite shockingly angry and wrong takes on the law. Occasionally I am tempted to block mutual contact to make it stop, but I am also strangely fascinated by what he comes out with.

fanOfBen · 03/07/2026 09:55

I'll c&p this morning. I'll skip the various catch-up tweets there now about documents as they don't come over very well and just point here for them:
https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments
In particular Emma Dunn's witness statement, on which questioning should shortly conclude, is there, but maybe not suitable for those with hypertension.

Tempest vs DEFRA & Rural Payments Agency

Tempest is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment.

https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Iamnotalemming · 03/07/2026 09:56

WeareBeyondSupplementalBundles · 03/07/2026 09:20

Yes Alex works at Naomi’s chambers. First gender woo trial.

I think seeing the regional and sexier discrimination caught him off guard. He wised up and started talking about orthodoxy. He did well.

ED probably had Cleo Lunt and Lewis Silkin help but god it was an embarrassingly cringe Tink is so strong I just hold his manly hands and also Zionism is coming for us. Doesn’t read half as clever when she was off harassing race groups.

Ah I hadn't spotted NC and AL were in the same chambers. Good stuff.

fanOfBen · 03/07/2026 09:59

From TT:

^The employment tribunal of Samantha Tempest vs DEFRA & Rural Payments Agency will continue today, 3rd July with continued evidence expected from Emma Dunn. Our coverage of the first morning session will be here. t.co/seyc8XWlfd^

Our previous coverage, plus relevant publicly available documents can be found on our Substack here:
^t.co/cXf4aYdwsq^

Tempest (the claimant or C) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN or IP). SEEN has been granted right to intervene.

Earlier sessions have included discussions of pronouns and how the C is to be referred to. The judge has issued directions. We have copied this from
@JRLevinsLaw
^ X post, therefore in the public domain. t.co/iduF0BUFEQ^

A personal post by one of the co-chairs of SEEN, has been frequently mentioned. The images below are available from
@JRLevinsLaw
^ and on the SEEN crowdfunder, therefore public domain. t.co/htk1r3psTc^

We are a small group of volunteer citizen journalists. We receive no payment for our work. We accept paid subscriptions to our Substack to fund necessary expenses including travel, legal fees and digital costs.
Please consider subscribing

A reminder that our work is not a verbatim account or transcript of proceedings. We make our best efforts to report what is said and do so in good faith

PQ – Anonymised claimant, no longer a party
ST/C – Samantha Tempest, Claimant
DEFRA/R1 – Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, first Respondent
RPA/R2 – Rural Payments Agency, second Respondent
RS – First and second Respondents

23h
SEEN/IP – Sex Equality and Equity Network – Civil Service
EW – Elspeth Duemmer Wrigley, co-chair of SEEN
NC – Naomi Cunningham, barrister for SEEN as Intervenor
J – Employment judge SD Robertson
P1 – Panel member 1
P2 – Panel member 2
AL – Alex Line, barrister for Rs

JRL – JR Levins, solicitors for SEEN
HH – Helen Hogben, barrister for claimant
AB – Anna Bond, solicitor for claimant
AM – Andreas Mueller
GC – gender critical or sex realist views
GI – gender identity

TW – transwoman, a man claiming the protected characteristic of gender assignment TM – transman, woman claiming the protected characteristic of gender assignment
INT – Intervenor
ETBB – Equal Treatment Bench Book
GRC – Gender recognition certificate
PC – Protected characteristic

GRA – PC of gender reassignment
DD – Direct discrimination
MLF – My learned friend
CA – Caroline Airs
ED – Emma Dunn
NB – Nicola Bettesworth
VE – Viva Engage
CM – Carly Manning
IAO – Information Asset Owners
NE – Natural England

OH – Occupational health
G – Grievance
GA – Grievance appeal
GI – Grievance investigation/investigator
SGI – Second grievance investigation
SGA – Second grievance appeal
WFTCHTJ - waiting for the conference host to join (waiting for video conference to begin)

We expect to begin at 10am

My note: oh alright, the list of abbreviations has expanded a fair bit so here you go!

pontefractals · 03/07/2026 10:00

StellaAndCrow · 03/07/2026 09:31

5% Yes
17% I'm not sure
5% No
3% a combination of the three options.

I'm not a statistician (but I know what a survey is) but I'm not sure how helpful it is to include people who give more than one reply when the options are yes/no/not sure.

If i were reporting the results of this badly-designed survey, I would certainly include the "more than one of the above" as a sign to the careful reader that I think it's all bosh. I mean, for transparency. I would also report that apparently 70% of (respondents? People surveyed? Not sure which, but i would be clear if i were doing the write-up) didn't answer this question at all.

janeszebra · 03/07/2026 10:06

'Carly Manning' - Who's that? Sounds familiar?

fanOfBen · 03/07/2026 10:08

From TT:

Additional abbreviation DH David Hallam, Defra Director of Floods and Water

We begin
J - Good morning.
NC - would you turn to para 13 of EW statement

Her witness statement
NC - would you remind yourself of what that says and I will ask you a q
ED - OK

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