Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 4

[myladydisdainisyetliving]

Previous thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5549122-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-3

TT substack: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

I will also note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

ED yes sex is bimodal not binary
There is not reason to say sex is binary in the workplace

This is such a clear example of unreasonable policing of thought and language - 'sex is binary' is at best a scientific fact, at worst a theory that ED disagrees with.
The idea that even saying it is offensive is off the scale unreasonable.

Whatever about human sex, the sex of the non-human 'clientele' of DEFRA is unquestionably binary

It seems ED is very lucky it's not her being dragged to an employment tribunal for her stalking, harassing, data-breaching behaviour.

Just dropping in (usually lurk) to say this witness is scary and her witch hunt of colleagues who might not agree with agender, ie not believe
men/ transwomen are women if they say so - is deeply intimidating.

Is there a new thread, only 25 posts left in this one! @myladydisdainisyetliving

From TT:

ED one member Andreas took exeption to, a transwoman at MoJ
NC - this doesn't seem to have anything to do with this claim?

HH - relevant to AM behaviour
some discussion about what is relevant or not
J - lot of evidence about campaigns, but this isn't relevant to this case

J - to be fair the questions have gone beyond....
How much relevance, we are not conducting an audit of behaviour generally

J - rather than spending more time debating, one more question
HH - what did you mean by abuse?
ED - knew name, he met at an event, thereafter he just went after all the time, talking about dead wife

Me too, 2 minutes of the banter in my local would have ED and co mass fainting all over the floor!

From TT:

AL - I would wish to register my objection, not raised hithertoo, not relevant.
#
Some discussion with J about what is relevant

HH - I will move to another topic

HH - just trying to see if q I really need to ask
it was put to you by NC that agender has been closely involved in campaign by C
ED - absol not

"There is not reason to say sex is binary in the workplace"

FFS. Prison officers are civil servants and sex very much matters there. All workplaces have toilets, and some have changing, shower and gym facilities. Data on sex is still important data.

<bangs head on desk>

@myladydisdainisyetliving is probably stuck in a tedious meeting so maybe someone else needs to start the next thread? Any takers or shall I?

J - rather than spending more time debating, one more question

J limiting HH's questioning too. Maybe he is just trying to keep them all on track.

I have created the whole set, lanyard, poster, flag etc, no doubt to be so triggering that ST and ED will be off sick for exactly one day short of the maximum full pay sick leave allowed.

Yes I agree - and yet no one will have done anything about it internally.

Data breach - no action
Data processing - no action
Harassment of colleagues - no action
Hassling people who went to a race event - no action
Asked for AM to be found guilty - no action
Illegal advice into policies - no action
Personal vendetta against Elspeth - no action
Lying under oath about a wide range of things - no action
Likely being paid for this tribunal - no action

And no one should object to this - no action

New thread
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5549959-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-5

Perfect, thank you!

From TT:

HH - asked yesterday about time you became involved in C case. At times you were unable to assist with dates. If we forget dates and talk about events, at what point do you first recall become involved

ED - i had a colleague who was in the Women's Network, who was gravely concerned. I was more than happy to add support. ST first time we met in person was [recent}
HH at what point of grievance
ED yes!
ED I am struggling to remember which colleague was at which meeting

there is discussion of dates of meeting with Judge

AL - my note Mrs Tempest and I were speaking last week - that needs to be clarified
J - when did you speak to ST
ED - Sunday
J last Sunday
ED no Sunday before, I think I can't remember

I think NC used the term "gender identity theory" once at the beginning
But I would not like to use the term theory for something so incoherent

ED (analogy about sex being bimodal, not binary) - TT lost some details due to sound.

ED I used to say that I see myself as a northerner, but I was born in the south. Some people say I can never be a northerner. (she uses example of sitting on local council people)

ED does it matter I was born in the south

I'm not sure this analogy is entirely helpful to her cause. As an analogy to trans, it would be that some people are born in the south, but they are really northerners, and they know this because they like northern things, like pies, whippets and flat caps.

How did you make them? They look professionally made. I have one I bought from For Women Scotland, in the feminist colours, with a Coke Terf bottle I bought from Posie Parker, the laynard says : Woman Adult Human Female. Been wearing them in at Woke work for nearly 3 years ........

I’m quite sure ED and friends would find a reason to object to whatever term was used, because it isn’t really the term they care about.

@WeareBeyondSupplementalBundles There is zero point in emailing the agender email to complain about their conduct. Email their line manager, maybe, but I suspect that would also not be effective unless you have personal reason to complain of harassment. Elspeth likely could raise a harassment claim, as could the people who she stalked and doxed, possibly having incorrectly identified them.

Spot-on!😂

From TT:

HH you were asked about any disciplin action
J no NC
HH you said not subject to that, would you have expected any if you'd done anything wrong?
ED 100% yes

HH -thank you that's all my questions
J -that concludes your evidence Mrs Dunn We wil have a break until 12 and then hear from Mr Hallam

A nice natural break for the thread!

Why can neither witness so far remember the important stuff? Like exactly what was said/happened and when

They are indeed lovely, but I think they only exist on screen, Cailin66, Unless Myrtle goes into business to make them and sell them, which would be great😃