Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 4

[myladydisdainisyetliving]

Previous thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5549122-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-3

TT substack: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

I will also note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

Fuckin' 'ell!

ED same anon accounts, I took an interest of who they might be, found evidence of four members to four accounts. But didn't send to one member as evidence not strong enough to send to his employer.
J - sent letters to others
ED other 2 not defra

Who's "he"? Do you mean Emma?

- do you accept that Civil Service investigation was independent?
ED - yes
J- rigorous?
ED no

Well, that was unusually clear!

Good qs from the judge there.

Yes, if it's an official account I think it's fair enough to signpost for people to share complaints.

I don't know if it's my browser or the link but I clicked it and it took me to a warning page to say it's not private though?

@WeareBeyondSupplementalBundles

Please stop it. It is never good to encourage a pile on.

She’s been stalking and harassing and misrepresenting basic truth.

And the usual refrain will be no one said anything no one complained.

I am happy to complain about the one sided process internally.

Yes I agree. Much as it's frustrating to see NC cut off all the time, if these are the concerns the J will be considering then it's good to hash them out directly.
Not that NC wouldn't make good points, but I was worried the J wasn't engaging at all, so this suggests he is.

From TT:

HH - you were asked yesterday about para 13 -15 your statement, you were asked about 14 in particular.

Some discussion about page numbers from J

It was put to you that 'sex is binary' is offensive
ED yes sex is bimodal not binary
There is not reason to say sex is binary in the workplace
It was put to you that it depends on the purpose and context. He didn't take you up on that analogy

I use that I see myself as a northerner, but I was born in the south.
Some people say I can never be a northerner.
(she uses example of sitting on local council people)

She then says in her analogy 'does it matter I was born in the south'
(sorry I lost some of that, but it was about people arguing in council meetings about being born in the south)

HH - number of trans or intersex people, probably in hundreds
ED I really can't, maybe the 200s Yeah I think

I just don’t believe you wouldn’t bother to at least skim the defence/intervener WS relating to your own employment tribunal.

Yes I did - I'm failing to follow the pronouns/people, fortunately there's a break so I can reset my brain.

Me neither. Paging Mr Hill to stroke his chin.

Yes she’s a liar and has lied a number of times in this tribunal

From TT:

HH - asked about the race forum, and it was put to you that there response is that they didn't agree with your view, you said you felt they were leaned on, why do you say that?

ED -the letter they replied to made no sense. It used gender ideology in the actual reply, even though we sent that was a pej term. Didn't sound like a letter that (a member she knows) would have written
HH - you received a written response, did you speak to them?

ED a couple of members who reached out who were upset, no formal discussion
HH - in terms of senior people? Any conv with them?
ED not before, no. After, no. Other than mediation

Just realised this isn’t the complainant is it?

"Sex is bimodal".

Not officially.

No, it's the Cs witness. ED seems to think it's her tribunal though!

What exactly are we allowed to call the disputed belief that sex based policies should be arranged around claimed “gender identity”, instead?

From TT:

HH - asked about the complaints you made about twitter account of AM, and one of these responses you made yesterday was that members seeking out people to be abusive - email 5th Dec large bundle p13

HH - this appears to be a post on Twitter from agender - photo of 6 people there. Don't need to know names, are these people members of agender
Missed
Message from AM saying 'clowns have arrived'

HH - any other examples of abusive behaviour?
J - how does this q deal with this?
HH invite witness to ask what she meant

Nothing. We are expected to just read it, shut up and put up.

It's pretty obvious that Emma conducted a witch hunt, and is ably demonstrating the level of influence a:gender had.

There's been a lot of mention of Maya's case; but worth remembering the importance of Harry Miller's case around expression of beliefs.

I'd rather have a beer with AM than ED, I think we may get along.

It seems that even when we put our objection to it in words, it must be controlled in such a way that it can’t be clearly articulated.

Nobody knows they exist!

ED: aG is best kept secret in the Civil Service, nobody knows we exist, Samantha didn't to start with