Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 4

[myladydisdainisyetliving]

Previous thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5549122-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-3

TT substack: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

I will also note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

A few random thoughts after major catching up of threads:

Thank you for all the comments which help me make as much sense as possible about what’s going on, in particular the re-TTers.

When I lived on the Fylde Coast there was a lot of Civil Service employment there. That area includes Blackpool and Lytham, mentioned upthread.

(If I had worked for the CS there myself I’d have signed the Official Secrets Act, so couldn’t mention it. Possibly.)

When I sold a house on the Fylde in the 1990s it became registered land, but when it had been bought in the late ‘60s the sale wasn’t registered. It would make sense to have Land Registry centres in areas of unregistered land, but I expect it’s a coincidence.

I'm pretty sure any parasol or umbrella wouldn't be allowed in court & would have to be left with security.

Eat them while they are frozen - no point otherwise! 😋😉

Rachel Rooney for the win. That's fab.

Ereshkigalangcleg · Yesterday 21:11

I'd say it's worth emailing that to Naomi Cunningham.

Thanks for the BorrowBox tip. Just downloaded so that’s my weekend listening sorted.

@SinnerBoy Anything you think might be relevant to the case should be sent to the instructing solicitor - but it would be too late to add to the intervenors bundle. However if this has to go to appeal it could be useful.

Elspeth's garden, Chair of SEEN sued for saying only women menstruate, has 76,823 plants so is growing but it has some way to go to reach its target.

Nope you can take them in with you. Tribunals are relatively chilled. No security.

Inspired by Rachel’s bodice ripping tale, and as we await our 10am start, a tiny offering to get the poetry / rhyme & song flowing

Emma Had a Little Lamb

Emma had a little lamb,
Innocent & white as snow,
And every link that Emma sent,
The lamb was sure to go

He followed her to SEEN one day,
Which was against the rule,
It made the women laugh and play,
To see the man a fool.

And so the mods turned him out,
But still he lingered near,
And waited patiently about,
Till posts did appear.

"What makes the lamb love Emma so?"
The eager women cry;
"Why, Emma leads the lamb, you know,"
Naomi did reply.

On the audio recording point. Most/all employment tribunals are recorded but then are not transcribed. The transcription is available for purchase but it's expensive and slow. Something like £1.50 per page and minimum 48 hour turnaround but the recording isn't necessarily available daily. A day would be hundreds of pages and its not available until after the hearing is finished.

For the second half of Peggie, the Cs paid for a steno team and got transcripts every night.

I’m a generally competent person but trying to get a piece of land registered to me (garden area for my flat, clearly stated in deeds but in the end had to go for adverse possession) via the LR completely defeated me and I had to engage a solicitor. Utterly awful forms, arcane terminology, no guidance or explanation in clear English, very pleasant but utterly clueless people on phone if I needed help.
Weirdly I have a couple of relatives who work there. They were unsurprised at my experience (and also couldn’t help.)

Im a lawyer and land law is death. So that doesn’t surprise me.

But everyone carries a chromosome from their father...?

Apologies to anyone having issues with Land Registry- we do try really hard to sort stuff out for people, but it's horrendously complicated sometimes, and conveyancers using untrained/undertrained staff doesn't help. Anyway rant over :)

Just for interest, having had a bit of a nosey this morning, ED is less senior than ST by a grade, and is currently seconded to a different department, presumably being paid by them and not HMLR.

I've been thinking about this over night. I'm infertile but don't to the best of my knowledge have a DSD.

i don't hate women who can have children, that would be nuts. I've never come across an infertile women who did either.

if she has never come ti terms with her infertility then that is really sad for her on a personal level. I wonder if her DSD diagnosis and adoption of the alphabet cause gives her a feeling of belonging. It is common for infertile women to feel that they don't belong as their friends and family have children and they don't. There is often a losing or reducing of friendships

I wish Emma had been given more support and then maybe she wouldn't be pursing this vendetta against women

23 actually, and most of them carry more genes than the Y.

Indeed. Half your chromosomes are from your father, not just the one sex chromosome.

So ST is HEO which would make ED EO?

That's incredibly junior for the level of access and influence she's been able to command. No wonder she's so evangelical (and fucking furious that the gravy train has run off the rails).

On the plus side, her salary will have been c£30k rather than 50k or above. So less spaffed away on this shit than could have been, but still £150k of our fucking money devoted to diligently undermining other women's rights.

All these stupid accusations of far right cash funding the terfs - they never appreciate that we're finding both sides of the argument BY OURSELVES.

Maddening.

Love this! Thank you

AL: You're all about lived experience, surely he can speak about his lived experience.
ED I think it's fine until it's about tropes and stereotypes about trans

Tropes and stereotypes can be dismissed as prejudice. Scientific evidence and data from surveys can be dismissed as biased. But 'lived experience' has been lauded as Truth (and owned as My Truth). Invalidating someone's lived experience is a sin, and erases their existence.

So if someone's lived experience confirms the tropes and sterotypes, they can't use the usual tools of denial without tying another knot in their cognitive dissonance.

What is her grade? She has been in the CS for 30 years and is still lower than ST who complains about not advancing fast enough?

I keep thinking I'm seeing it in the background at Wimbledon 😃

I think lack of qualifications can also be a problem to advancement. You can advance so far on your merit, but higher up grades require educational qualifications too. I think some ambitious people (if they hadn’t university degree) in the CS who realised they needed these, used to do a degree by night, or with orgs like OU in order to be eligible for advancement.

No one else then…. Ok just me 🤪

Blurs latest song

"Girls And Boys"

SEENs like a jungle
So call Stasi police
Saying sex is real
They must cease
On sick pay
Six months & more
I’m paranoid
On DEFRA yammer
With a sledge hammer
Looking for

Girls who say boys, who like boys are just gays,
Those who dress boys like they're girls, or dress girls like they're boys
Always should know sex is immutable,
Girls who are boys, aren’t just boys they’re just girls,
Who say boys can be girls, and hound girls who say no,
Always should know ideology’s not inscrutable

Avoiding all work
'Cause it’s the gender wars,
Like battery thinkers
Count your thoughts
On one, two, three, four, five fingers
Nothing is wasted
Only reproduced
You get nasty blisters
Hounding the facists
Genocidal TERFs we’ve deduced

Girls who say boys, who like boys are just gays,
Those who dress boys like they're girls, or dress girls like they're boys
Always should know sex is immutable,
Girls who are boys, aren’t just boys they’re just girls,
Who say boys can be girls, and hound girls who say no,
Always should know gender ideology’s not inscrutable

Oh, oh, oh, oh-oh, oh
Oh, oh, oh, oh-oh

Girls who say boys, who like boys are just gays,
Those who dress boys like they're girls, or dress girls

Girls who say boys, who like boys are just gays,
Those who dress boys like they're girls, or dress girls like they're boys
Always should know sex is immutable,
Girls who are boys, aren’t just boys they’re just girls,
Who say boys can be girls, and hound girls who say no,
Always should know gender ideology’s not inscrutable

Girls who say boys, who like boys are just gays,
Those who dress boys like they're girls, or dress girls like they're boys
Always should know sex is immutable,
Girls who are boys, aren’t just boys they’re just girls,
Who say boys can be girls, and hound girls who say no,
Always should know gender ideology’s not inscrutable

Oh, oh, oh, oh-oh, oh
Oh, oh, oh, oh-oh

Morning all, I’m not going to be able to commit to c&p today, sorry. My employer is expecting me to actually attend some meetings, outrageous. Perhaps I should apply for a job in the CS.

Speaking of which, I would advise anyone who does work for the CS to be very careful in revealing any information about the claimant and their witness that is available to you via work. We’ve already seen from evidence that they are aware of MN, I wouldn’t be surprised to know that the same “allies” that provided evidence to ST about the MN thread in evidence are also reading these threads. In fact, I’d be surprised if they aren’t.