Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 4

[myladydisdainisyetliving]

Previous thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5549122-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-3

TT substack: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

I will also note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

She really hates women doesn't she. Just fucking despises them.

From TT:

NC: Going back to "active harm", I said angry and upset and you didn't seem to disagree. You'd also be angry if women gathered to discuss FWS?
ED: In the workplace yes. Oppose anything that causes the amount of upset SEEN has.

NC: para 16 WS. Last 2 sentences, you say ppl have been contacting aG ever since SEEN founded. Ppl find SEEN profoundly offensive and can't now perform their duties.

NC: Such an extreme reaction to opinions they disagree with means ppl are not really suited to adult life?
ED: Not disagreement! Harassed, victimised. Trans ppl most resilient I have ever met.

NC: End of my topic, if we would like a break?

J: Will we get to another witness today?
NC: I don't think so.
J: Will you finish today? If you could aim to, that would be very good & wd appreciate.

ED: Why do they need defending? Nobody is saying - we're saying, does it matter and if so how much. This is not the conversation that needs to happen
NC: It's not the one you want to have, but plenty of women do.
ED: They can do that without a network.

She really hates women, doesn't she? I surmise, therefore, that she really hates herself, because happy, busy people who are content and pretty much like themselves, don't have time for hate.

From TT:

J: We're not here to discuss SEEN beliefs as such - if we could bear this in mind and stick to C's case

[BREAK]

NC: Such an extreme reaction to opinions they disagree with means ppl are not really suited to adult life? 😎😆

NC: Such an extreme reaction to opinions they disagree with means ppl are not really suited to adult life?

Boom!

That's it for today.

Here is our badge!

NC: You say here "active harm" - you mean angry and upset?
ED: And frustrating - trying to deal with people who think, I don't know, that I'm lying? Don't know what they think.

Frustrating? SHE'S frustrated???

I really feel for Elspeth having to sit and listen to this, I imagine "frustrated" doesn't cover it.

J: We're not here to discuss SEEN beliefs as such - if we could bear this in mind and stick to C's case

Surely whether or not SEEN's beliefs are fascist and/or genocidal merits some discussion?

Continuing on with Emma's witness statement -

(e) The Crossland Employment Solicitors’ Report from 2018 [page number to follow] reported that 1 in 3 employers would be “less likely” to hire a trans person, and 43% were unsure if they would.

After you and Tinkerbell are finished speaking that will be 98% of people are less likely to hire a trans person.

You do no work, cause havoc and act like the Stasi. Horrific.

Don't think so, TT says BREAK.
Therir caps not mine

It was end of topic and a break. Not end of witness.

J: We're not here to discuss SEEN beliefs as such - if we could bear this in mind and stick to C's case ( tomorrow)

'Trans ppl most resilient I have ever met.' LOL

So for those in the room - spill it!

That's a humdinger all right 😂

That's her definition of resilient, others are available.

Doesn't entirely ring true, does it? 😁

Even though they" the most harrassed and victimised" people on the whole planet.

NC: So if someone actually wanted a women's network, they had to start one?
ED: You mean female not women

Wait a second. I'm having a flashback. Didn't Upton say the same thing? Really kept trying to compel speech, somewhere around the nebulous dog whistle and he is a biological woman because he is biological aka not a robot and he identifies as a woman?

Do they all just get a handbook or something with favourite phrases to use in court?

J: Will you finish today? If you could aim to, that would be very good & wd appreciate

translation: I have got to get out of here!

Oh good, she a horror but there's not need to end her. 😱

J: We're not here to discuss SEEN beliefs as such - if we could bear this in mind and stick to C's case

Oh fuck off J! It is clear the claim is centred on SEEN beliefs so of fucking course understanding how the witnesses are building their claim on a complete misrepresentation of those beliefs is crucial.

I think we can understand what his problem is now. His intolerance of the intervenor is because from the outset, having read the WS's he didn't think he needed any explainors about SEEN, nor that they were necessary because the point, to him, isn't SEEN or its value to the workplace but to whether or not the claims of harassment and hostile working environment are evidenced.

So I think he is in a trench of his own making which means he is actively resisting any learning around the mispresentation and hyperbole of TRAs.

Although given some of his questions he has undoubtedly gound some of the questioning around how ED understands SEEN position as being useful tho he will never admit it.

Can't he just say I'd appreciate you keeping it brief! Why does he have to load it up so negatively.

Humphhh. Only if its halfway down the stairs, so I'm not at the bottom, I'm not at the top... Isn't up, and isn't down. It isn't in the nursery, It isn't in the town.