Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 3

[myladydisdainisyetliving]

Previous thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5548369-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-2

TT substack: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

I will also note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

The judge is very tetchy with NC this morning.

'Listen with Birthing Person' isn't quite the same.

From TT:

the upset was directed, clearly from these comments, at EW
J - when you wrote anger, what else
ST - the anger was at DEFRA, the upset was at EW, the confusion was general
NC - this anger was anger that you had deliberately stirred up, you had called for this
ST - I invited

colleagues to call out DEFRA
NC - seeing what had happened following this post, don't you have some responsibility to tone down the responses
ST - I never asked anyone to attack EW personally, its not my job to moderate the content, it's DEFRA
NC - it's all accurate isn't it

His witness cried too, performatively in my view. More disruption from her needing tissues to cope.

And from here on in, ST will look to the judge every time he needs sympathy (or extra time to not answer a question)

I'm only reading the TT updates on this thread, not watching proceedings, but I'm feeling very uneasy about the attitude of the J here.

I really disagree that the premise of the book is that everyone is comfortable in their bodies, I think it is the opposite. I've raised one with Asperger's and he was definitely not, puberty landed like a sledgehammer, but it was well before all this nonsense so he never picked up that he could become comfortable by transing himself.
The book is about looking after your body and being able to be comfortable in it.

Bloody stupid man.

Emma Dunn?

Actually, it might be Listen with Birthing Person But Only To Those Books That Mr Tempest Considers Acceptable

We predicted tears at some point, and they came, unsurprisingly, when NC turned up the heat a little - only a little, she was more direct but it didn't read as aggressive questioning.

Snap. Today feels very 'off' from reading the tweets

It seems to be being triggered by the introduction of My Body and Me. J clearly disapproved of ST having to engage with such a disturbing text. I get that the J has to ensure care for a witness but as someone else said the usual approach is to give a few moments to recover, as we have seen in numerous other instances. Completing speech because connotations on one side and not the other and then not allowing NC to read out the sections of the book then cutting her off is all very very unusual.

From TT:

ST - I don't know for certain, I recognise some of it,
NC - you responded to post about SEEN launch, seen by 18k people, 600+ likes, gave you hope that DEFRA would respond appropriately, you were hoping to stir up an angry mob
ST - as you say, SEEN did not exist

NC - SEEN did exist
ST - I asked people to call out DEFRA, not attack EW, I was very upset at this point and was not particularly engaging with anything,
NC - please can you stop there, you've answered my q, I'm waiting for the judge to catch up, he'll never catch up

I've overspent 2026's gardening budget already but my goodness if this has to go to appeal I'll plant some more seeds.

<poof> there goes my respect for the judge

I'm waiting for the judge to catch up, he'll never catch up

True, dat, I fear.

These people are expert manipulators, with flying monkeys.

ST - I asked people to call out DEFRA, not attack EW, I was very upset at this point and was not particularly engaging with anything,
NC - please can you stop there, you've answered my q, I'm waiting for the judge to catch up, he'll never catch up

please can you stop there, you've answered my q, -
good - stop ST having so many opportunities to make speeches about himself when he's asked a simple q.!

Sorry Emma Dunn, paid civil service cried at a children’s book saying my body is me.

Which wasn’t allowed to be read out in court by a biased judge?

What was she crying for?

Yes

From TT:

NC - AM describes the response as a torrent of abuse and mis-information, now onto another sec of WS. Para 127, you are complaining bitterly that you no longer have the sense of freedom to help yourself to things provided for women
ST - I'm saying that all inclusion for TW is

being thrown to one side. These things don't need to be segregated by sex, but because of the existence of SEEN they now are.
NC - returning to pile on, you said you didn't engage any further
ST - I said i barely engaged
NC - how many comments did you make
ST - I think I made 2

Just a general reminder please: those here on MN who are watching, please don't comment on what you see or hear until the breaks? We don't want live viewing to be suspended, and we know that 'someone' will be monitoring these threads. (thanks)

I will say though, if ST's already onto performative tears, then real righteous indignation and anger will be simmering under the surface - and I'm willing to bet they'll bubble through!

NC - AM describes the response as a torrent of abuse and mis-information, now onto another sec of WS. Para 127, you are complaining bitterly that you no longer have the sense of freedom to help yourself to things provided for women