Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 2

[myladydisdainisyetliving]

Previous thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5546841-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-follow-on-from-chair-of-seen-is-being-sued

TT substack: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

I will also note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

From TT:

NC: Finally - pronouns - I understood I could either use ST preferred pronouns or avoid, the written order says use "they/them" - need to know if can do my preference and simply avoid pronouns
J: Yes that is entirely acceptable.

NC: Good afternoon, am Qing on behalf of the intervenor. I have moved to this end to encourage you to keep voice up as I'm firther away.

NC: You said this morning you wanted to correct some evidence, wd like to let you do that now.
ST: p1860 - I said re Steve Moore decision, this is the draft. He upholds my grievance - I think I had said he didn't.

ST: Begins 1859. [All are reading]

J: email before it p1857?
ST: yes. IMO from the draft, Steve M upholds my complaint, the environment is toxic for me, he makes recommendations, but in the email it seems to say he can't get DEFRA agreement.

Clowns to the left of me....

I've got that open too but find it a bit hard going as it all comes out upside down.
The champion c and p-ers of Mumsnet make it all in the right order!

I thought Emma Dunn was coaching or otherwise signalling to the claimant right from the start. Emma Dunn is the chair of the cross-government network called a:gender (sic) which celebrates all things trans. She is the claimant’s witness.

From TT:

ST: This contrasts with final letter - very different from draft - but initially he upheld my complaint, so I believe he was pressured to change it.

NC: A few Qs re SEEN's purpose. What do you think is main purpose?
ST: That sex is binary and immutable, and about advanceing equality between men and women.

NC: p356. First 3 objectives. You said, "sex is binary and immutable & equality men-women". Entirely clear here that equality is the primary obj?
ST: That's what it says yes

NC: There are other networks re 'gender equality'
ST: Yes
NC: But fully signed up to gender ideology?
ST: Wouldn't put it like that. And I don't speak for them.

I agree, I'm mostly following our wonderful c&p-ers on here

"Steve M upholds my complaint, the environment is toxic for me"

Oh, the humanity - I'm gonna start saying the same to my work!

TOXIC!!!

I assume this is she?

www.civilservice.lgbt/news/2020/07/07/emma-dunn-allyship

ED clearly has no idea how to behave in a court room. So far she has had to be spoken to on 3 separate occasions about 3 different aspects of her behaviour. She's not a youngster, she should know better.

I was thinking vaguely about Carry On films earlier and now I know why.
Infamy! Infamy!

if you click on the pinned tweet on top the thread opens and you it in chronological order

Thanks. Now I've got a Britney Spears earworm.
😀

From TT:

NC: p874 (and look also at 870). This is doc on lines to take about SEEN by Caroline Airs, approved by Nicola Bettesworth?
ST: Don't know who drafted or approved it.
NC: I think doc can speak for itself.

NC: Then there's an update and on 874 we see that SEEN concentrates on protected characteristic of sex, and that this is different from the gender or LGBTQ networks. SEEN is unique in this?

ST: Disagree, there are GC members of LGBTQ network - don't know about gender one - their views are as much represneted as anyone else
NC: You are saying equally represented by those?
ST: Yes

NC: Explain?
ST: Well GC members in LGBTQ made views known and network was much more neutral after that.

My note: he complained about that, right?

.blimey. It must be a full time job writing to all those departments with your FOI requests, then keeping track of the responses, and your response to their response, and their response to your response……

My dd has to deal with FOI requests as part of her local government job, and says a huge number of them are clearly vexacious and malicious, it’s a good example of something that is an excellent idea being hijacked by people with too much time on their hands and an axe that needs grinding.

Beautifully handled:

ST: Don't know who drafted or approved it.
NC: I think doc can speak for itself.

That's what we've been missing with AL, the ability to point out the reality.

Not fuckin asking you to say who drafted or approved it. It's there in back and white! Eejit.

From TT:

NT: p1303. Sarah Homer is v senior in DEFRA?
ST: yes
NC: She says - I imagine same on all all - email sig that she is sponsor of the Pride and Gender networks?
ST: Yes

NC: Is the implication not that she thinks women's rights (per biology) don't need separate championing?
ST: Disagree
NC: B4 SEEN there was no such representation

ST: There was a women's network, changed its name to gender network
NC: Surely that means, it's for women - unless they identify as men - plus men who identify as women?
ST: I don't know enough about it to say.

ST: All I know is, women's network changed its name to gender network.

ST: All I know is, women's network changed its name to gender network.

And I'm sure He has NO IDEA why.

ST: Well GC members in LGBTQ made views known and network was much more neutral after that.

I'd love to know what his definition of neutral is.

ED is a v expressive person - she will try to control this.

so no attempt at denial. Sneaky bastards.

He was forced to look at a tiny bit of reality whilst not being able to say whatever bollocks came out of his head.

A techy question for other observers. Has anyone got the view of courtroom on full screen and if so, how? Is there an option I'm missing? Mine is just a quarter of the screen with the black thumbnails underneath.

From TT:

NC: Surely tribunal can infer you would know if there had been the slightest GC statement from 'gender' network, because if it had all hell would have broken loose as when EDW posted?

ST: Don't agree, EDW posted on all-company
NC: We would know if they had, surely?
ST: Disagree

NC: So the group - women (unless TM) plus TW - that is not a coherent category is it?
ST: That depends what kind of policy you are trying to make. Can be appropriate to have inclusive language saying several things

NC: Biological sex is a coherent category - you can make law and policy on that basis. But if you muddle - put some men into W category and some women in M, not coherent?

My note: I do sometimes wish we could have a map of where Naomi is going :-) Is she just trying to rile him?

Scratch that, they are attempting to deny but it ain’t working…. Sneaky, sneaky bastards.

I'm sure she has a cunning plan.

@CriticalCondition Ask in the chat box for the clerk to maximum the courtroom screen, politely. Then minimise the chat section.