Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 2

[myladydisdainisyetliving]

Previous thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5546841-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-follow-on-from-chair-of-seen-is-being-sued

TT substack: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

I will also note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

I think think there's been some misunderstanding about the timing of the last break. I don't know whether the judge made a slip or TT but they've been back for at least 40 mins or so. I suspect they'll break for lunch fairly soon.

Yes. AL still questioning, we’re not learning anything new at this point.

My complaint spreadsheet was very much a collated sheet managed fully by me with screenshots attached, with dates, resolutions and notes. I’m glad it didn’t get brought to any tribunals! It only had about 20 entries in all the time I was there (about 5 years) and they were mostly responses to social media posts and online or email complaints about our general business processes.

Can you take notes of anything that is interesting, and share with us at the next break?

Can you also take notes and share with us at next break? Can't say I'm that sorry to be missing it if it's more of the same mind...

If the hearing is ongoing, please can someone ask the clerks to let in the people in the waiting room? I’ve been waiting for half an hour.

Shambles seems to be the right word for this hearing, all round!

Lunch break now, resume at 2.05 with NC.

I suspect the complainant will submit a Microsoft form populated with their complaint and with links/ screenshots of the posting being referenced. Forms then produces an Excel spreadsheet drawn from the forms. So the moderators will have access to the forms in full and could have been instructed to search for the specific ones that ST refers to by his legal team but they, for probably obvious reasons, have not made that request. I suspect ST has been forwarded the original forms by an insider with access which would also make sense of why he is so au fait with detail not available to the court but only for those he feels commit the greatest crimes, not the rest.

NAOMI DUE ON AT 2.05pm KLAXON!

So AL just carried on going through the spreadsheet, eliciting nothing other than that ST thinks there was unfair moderation but others disagree?

And now we're at NC! Yay! I wonder what she'll do? I could see it going either way; she pushes really hard and he ends up a small puddle, or she is nice as pie to him and gives him lots of space to speak.

I am shocked at this case.
If gender critical belief that sex is immutable and sometimes matters is a widely held and is worthy of respect in a democratic society surely those beliefs can be expressed ?

But the Judge didn’t ask from where and how the excel document was created, did he?

Oh, and he can't admit to seeing those forms of course!

I think he successfully demonstrated there was nothing to substantiate ST claims beyond numeric.

It should have been thrown out early on IMO but I suppose it’s got so far into the labyrinthine processes of the CS and his claims of harassment and harm have been taken too seriously by them (hoist petard etc) to do that now.

From TT:

Apologies - we appear to have mistaken court timings and thought it was an early lunch, restarting at 1.15pm - but we think that that was in fact the morning break. This means we have missed quite a bit of the session. Will do our best to pick up at this point.

This is Samantha Tempest (ST) v DEFRA & RPA.

Alex Line (AL) is continuing cross-ex of claimant ST

AL: This provision doesn't create disadvantage - protects any belief not just ST
ST: Appears to, but that' not how it was applied

AL: Who do you say treated better than you here?
ST: GC colleagues
AL: All of them?
ST: Yes

AL: that's all my Qs judge

J: We will take lunch - resume 2.05pm - and Miss Cunningham will begin her questions.

[LUNCH]

Pretty much. The claimant also complained that SEEN was allowed to be set up with no input/veto from trans staff. And that overall GC staff opinions are favoured over trans/allies opinions.

Although if the “opinions” are similar to those read out in court, e.g. denying that sex is binary and immutable and denying that has any basis in fact, then I can see why those opinions aren’t held in high esteem.

No. But he wouldn't know to. I was suggesting HH should have sourced the original material, which I'm guessing is Forms, by asking Defra for it in advance. They have instead tried to avoid the Shoom being introduced which implies either shambles, likely, or they know his claims don't stand up because numbers of moderation actions by itself does not represent sufficient evidence of bias. Someone could have been swearing or threatening or just being rude (very likely) from the TRA side and GC side measured and careful. TRAS don't think they have to be careful.

My opinion, pure speculation based on TT coverage and reading his witness statement:

That person who dealt with his first complaint should have managed his expectations and not made recommendations that he should have everything he demanded, when much of it was questionable and could potentially be construed as vexatious and using the grievance process to enact harassment of another group. That might play badly for the RPA.

All of them were treated better than he was, eh. Victim complex writ large.

Elspeth has 75,043 plants and could do with more, Naomi is not cheap.

I'm going to miss the fun 😪

I expect Naomi to be nice as pie, she's rather good at setting a trap that witnesses gleefully fall into. I also expect tears from tinkerbell.

His complaints were first made years ago when Stonewall was still "educating" everyone, he expected total compliance.

He probably got total compliance when he started there in 2017, but the reason SEEN was being taken at all seriously and allowed to exist was Forstater, the EAT in 2021 and her eventual win in 2022.

I keep thinking he's in an advanced state of well she would say that wouldn't she.
(but it's not what she really means)

Is that a reverse Christine Keeler or the bog standard version?

The claimant also complained that SEEN was allowed to be set up with no input/veto from trans staff

I imagine the complaint was less about "input" and more about "veto" though!