How is the trans issue ever going to be resolved?

[PassportPanicFuuuck]

It seems as insoluble as the Israel/Palestine question when the two "sides" want directly opposing things. I've heard the arguments that trans people "just want to pee" and that "no-one would go through medical/surgical gender reassignment purely to abuse women", plus the mantras that "trans people exist", "trans rights are human rights" and "trans women are women" and it's quite clear that the people who believe these things fervently aren't going to change their minds any time soon.

But to a certain extent, life isn't fair. Not everyone does have equal opportunities. If you're in a gay relationship (and there's nothing wrong with that) you can't have a biological child with your partner; if you're infertile (as I am) you can't have a child at all; if you're trans (and there's nothing wrong with that either) you can't enter the spaces of the opposite sex; if you're British you don't have an automatic right to go and live in the US; if you're short and unsporty you don't have a right to be on the Olympic basketball team - and so on. All sorts of opportunities are denied people at various different points, some as a result of decisions you make (like not studying for a medical degree means I can never be a doctor) and some not (see above re. infertility), and beyond universal human rights you don't have a right - one might say "entitlement" - to an awful lot of things, much as you might keenly want them.

Like it or not, once we end up in these categories we have to accept it. Absolutely no-one is eligible to do everything or to go everywhere. However if you have made a choice - even if you consider it to be more a recognition of something innate rather than a conscious decision - it doesn't mean that you have made this choice on behalf of everyone else. If you have chosen to transition (again, you may not consider it to be a "choice") you can't dictate that everyone else ignore biology and logic and linguistic authenticity and you can't dictate that everyone else will want to celebrate your decision. No, we don't have to accept the "lady bulge", we don't have to accept child abuse under the guise of gender-affirming care and we don't have to accept men in female sports / changing rooms / organisations.

Not sure how coherently worded all the above is, but perhaps it will provoke some interesting debate.

Use the 'hide' options folks to make the thread disappear for you. I only came back because i got a 'like' notification😁

I have been insulted and smeared and lied about and misrepresented no matter what I did or said, as if I was a piece of garbage and a sub-human, for the thought-crime of not capitulating totally to someone else's views.

You want people to listen to you, this is not the way.

You're the one who has lied about us and misrepresented us. Strange you never acknowledge your own faults. Again, gaslighting and

I have been insulted and smeared and lied about and misrepresented no matter what I did or said, as if I was a piece of garbage and a sub-human, for the thought-crime of not capitulating totally to someone else's views.

I totally agree

Just a reminder to us all.

If women feel they have to share their trauma to convince someone that they have a right to not have ANY male person above the age of about 8 years old in what has been provisioned as a single sex space, this is retraumatising women.

For the sake of men. Male people who have a philosophical belief that doesn't reflect their body's material reality. It also is not relevant why those male people believe what they believe, it does not change material reality.

When women describe people who insist, demand and intimidate (even through name calling such as 'extremist') that female people must accept some male people in female single sex spaces as being misogynistic, this is why!

This thread has turned into a living demonstration of it.

No woman or girl should have to retraumatise themselves to justify wanting what actually is not controversial and has been clarified by the UK Supreme Court. Female single sex provisions are for female people only.

Not even the nicest, kindest male people are female. And FFS people need to stop forcing their or someone's philosophical belief that has no basis in material reality as being everyone's material reality.

Certain posters here have not covered their cause in glory, to put it mildly. You do not catch bees with vinegar, but with honey. I was able to hear Old Crone because I could bear to read her posts properly, unlike the ones laced with venom.

I think the thread is great and has had many interesting comments - It's just this particular diversion.

You do not catch bees with vinegar, but with honey.

Oh wow. Oh wow.... That is really rich.

I'm currently teaching my tween about Kevin the Teenager and his behaviour. This is a response I'd expect in line with that about how mean we are and how unfair life is.

I don't really regard such strops with much respect or substance. He seems to think being told to tidy his bedroom is a form of torture.

Given this is the level we've reached I don't think theres anywhere much left to go, but to leave him in his room to sulk and ponder on the situation at hand and how hard done by he is.

It's interesting that you see the relentless abuse of someone as a diversion - but perhaps you didn't see the deleted thread of yesterday.

I'm going to do you a favour and assume you didn't see the deleted thread of yesterday.

Of course. It's every individual's choice. I'm just flagging up the option to anyone who thinks this particular diversion isn't doing their MH any good

I did. I posted on it and then there were two more posts and it went puff.

I said the same I've said here.

Anything that frames delusional thinking as something you have to compromise on and surrender reality to, isnt middle ground.

This isn't an extremist position.

Undermining reality ALWAYS is a betrayal of trust and an abuse of power. There are no exceptions. Ever.

Ah, so you are also OK with so much relentless abuse across two days for the thought-crime of not agreeing completely with an ideology. I am SHOCKED.

More gaslighting and DARVO. You are the one who has been endlessly provoking. The depths of your gaslighting and DARVO cannot even be believed. You have to be having a laugh right now, you cannot be serious.

I guess we’re not womaning properly.

(BTW if anybody has a problem with fruit flies, put some vinegar in a glass, cover with clingfilm and poke a few holes. Leave near the infestation for a few days. Very effective. For some reason fruit flies prefer the vinegar to the sweet fruit.)

I hope the “trans issue” will be resolved by everyone obeying the law.

"ideology". There it is. The TRA talking point. Cast womens rights as an 'ideology' to hide the fact that TRAs are the ones propagating Ideology. Also known as DARVO. You are the one engaged in Ideology.

I think there is a profound metaphor in that somewhere, if I could only see it.

I thought it was flies and wasps we wanted to catch not bees?

"The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the convinced Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction (i.e., the reality of experience) and the distinction between true and false (i.e., the standards of thought) no longer exist."
Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism

"The aim of totalitarian education has never been to instill convictions but to destroy the capacity to form any."

"There are no dangerous thoughts; thinking it-self is dangerous"

"Before mass leaders seize the power to fit reality to their lies, their propaganda is marked by its extreme contempt for facts as such, for in their opinion fact depends entirely on the power of man who can fabricate it."

"Evil comes from a failure to think. It defies thought for as soon as thought tries to engage itself with evil and examine the premises and principles from which it originates, it is frustrated because it finds nothing there. That is the banality of evil"

I think Hannah knew a few things.

How is sex realism an “ideology”.