How is the trans issue ever going to be resolved?

[PassportPanicFuuuck]

It seems as insoluble as the Israel/Palestine question when the two "sides" want directly opposing things. I've heard the arguments that trans people "just want to pee" and that "no-one would go through medical/surgical gender reassignment purely to abuse women", plus the mantras that "trans people exist", "trans rights are human rights" and "trans women are women" and it's quite clear that the people who believe these things fervently aren't going to change their minds any time soon.

But to a certain extent, life isn't fair. Not everyone does have equal opportunities. If you're in a gay relationship (and there's nothing wrong with that) you can't have a biological child with your partner; if you're infertile (as I am) you can't have a child at all; if you're trans (and there's nothing wrong with that either) you can't enter the spaces of the opposite sex; if you're British you don't have an automatic right to go and live in the US; if you're short and unsporty you don't have a right to be on the Olympic basketball team - and so on. All sorts of opportunities are denied people at various different points, some as a result of decisions you make (like not studying for a medical degree means I can never be a doctor) and some not (see above re. infertility), and beyond universal human rights you don't have a right - one might say "entitlement" - to an awful lot of things, much as you might keenly want them.

Like it or not, once we end up in these categories we have to accept it. Absolutely no-one is eligible to do everything or to go everywhere. However if you have made a choice - even if you consider it to be more a recognition of something innate rather than a conscious decision - it doesn't mean that you have made this choice on behalf of everyone else. If you have chosen to transition (again, you may not consider it to be a "choice") you can't dictate that everyone else ignore biology and logic and linguistic authenticity and you can't dictate that everyone else will want to celebrate your decision. No, we don't have to accept the "lady bulge", we don't have to accept child abuse under the guise of gender-affirming care and we don't have to accept men in female sports / changing rooms / organisations.

Not sure how coherently worded all the above is, but perhaps it will provoke some interesting debate.

”The abusive posters were being authoritarian and extremist. The imagery was a perfect fit.”

I’m sorry, but even if you do feel they were being ‘authoritarian and extremist’, the ‘Imagery’ was absolutely NOT a perfect fit. Do you know nothing of the atrocities of Belsen, Auschwitz and any of the 44000 other death and concentration camps operated by Nazi Germany and its allies?

Oh ffs! What is WRONG with you?

Understanding that humans can't change sex, wanting women and girls to be able to toilet and change their clothes or talk about their trauma after a rape without the possible presence of a predatory male in the vicinity. Or even just the privacy and dignity of not having to do these things in front of ANY male person- you know, the way it was for decades before this. Entirely normal. Wanting to go back to that is NOT an extremist view.

I just posted this on the other thread, but it seems to be applicable here too.

I think that a significant issue with any one who starts to talk about 'middle ground' or 'moderate' views has only their own perception of what is and what is not middle ground or moderate to go by.

Hence over the past few days I have been very confused about whether posters are talking about their person 'middle ground' or whether they are making judgement statements as to what other people who say they are believers in 'middle ground' believe. And I was confused as to how people know what 'middle ground' believers all think. Blanket statements are actually rather misleading, maybe complete bollocks and it then is meaningless.

Over the past years, I don't believe that I have seen one workable suggestion from someone claiming to have a 'middle ground' compromise. Those people generally end up being someone who simply never thought deeply or from the many different aspects needed.

The 'compromise' inevitably is .... third spaces.

It is always, always jarring then to see third spaces offered up as if feminists have not been recommending this for at least a decade. Yet, feminists are constantly described as extremist.

Another character assassination!

You people cannot help yourselves, can you!

I am.....the very devil! 🤣🤣🤣 😈😈😈

ETA: I don't owe you a sanitised version of my feelings just so you don't feel uncomfortable.

Can someone please tell me how I “put the boot in” ?

im autistic and I genuinely don’t understand what I have said now that is so terrible.

No. This poster is seeing things that aren't there. See their post above yours. No character assassination, just truth.

Absolutely. I'm talking about the unnecessary derail with no attempt to engage with the substance of the thread.

"I feel like an oppressed Jew during the Holocaust!!!" because someone disagreed with me on the internet.

It's not a great look.

I'm autistic too. Probably why I'm so upset.

I forgot I said this hours ago, but we should stop talking. We do each other no good at all.

To answer, I think you seized on my upset to say something else awful about me.

You are being disingenuous. You know full well that my treatment on this corner of MN amounts to a TON more than someone disagreeing with me.

I think @SoftBalletShoes - that's a fairly tone deaf accusation to make to another poster who has described her own brutal rape & beating, in an effort to make you comprehend why your 'ideas' to let men into female spaces if they're little & cute enough are unworkable, misogynistic & facilitating abuse.

You should probably get some sleep & reflect

Sorry? Have I missed something?

Did you not say that you have been on Mumsnet for quite a while? If you have, surely you will have seen the majority of this board's regular posters clearly suggest 'third spaces'?

Why then have you persisted in calling feminists 'extreme'?

I remember when you posted on the breastfeeding thread and you did not have anywhere near the knowledge and understanding that other posters had yet you entered the thread and declared that there was so much 'hate' on that thread. Is this the same situation here? You call women 'extremist' when you actually have very little knowledge at all about what women are discussing?

Saying that reality is reality is not authoritarian. It's identifying abuses of power. This is fundamental in a functioning democracy to be able to do this without being smeared.

Authoritarians on the other hand function off the back of untruths, lies and unachievable goals whilst also intimidating and silencing opposition. This is done by credible means until they run out of road on that at which point they switch to ad hominem attacks and picking at any possible smear they can find.

If you would like to get into a debate about propaganda and authoritarianism I'm quite happy to oblige and will happily pull out some references for you about the subject at length.

Once again you are doing a good job of talking at us and down at us as if we are stupid and don't know anything about the subject.

I will politely suggest it's probably not the smartest move here to embarrass yourself further.

Bullshit.

It's absolutely fascinating how utterly vicious some GC people are. And this corner of the internet is an especially interesting study because it goes unchecked, so you can really see the psychology of some members of the internet.

I actually didn't know that people could be so vile in such a sustained and dirty manner just because someone doesn't entirely agree with them in all ways.

Quite the lesson in humanity.

Again, we have no idea who you are. Nothing anyone says on this forum is personal.

You don't disagree with us, but you don't like us either. That is fine.

If you want to protect your mental health, and I say this genuinely, you should just step away.

Me too. In fact, I have to say I am actually quite distressed by this thread - a certain poster’s claim to profound trauma in response to ‘words’ and refusal to acknowledge the pain and impact of real women’s lived experience - that I am going to step away from it now, and MN in general for a day or two.

This is incorrect. This is a moderated forum and abusive posts can be reported.

A robust dismantling of illogical arguments is not abuse.

Gaslighting and ....

You're the one that used Nazi imagery in relation to women discussing their rights.

You're not the one to lecture about "humanity"

And I think the rest of us should step away from this particular side bar too.

Whatever is going on with this poster, I don't think it has anything to do with women discussing their rights.

Well you think women standing g up for their legal rights is hateful, bigoted and makes us 'brown shirts' so I'd hazard that your opinion is a bit off on this topic

stop tagging me. I haven’t tagged you. I haven’t even addressed you directly. Except where you have told lies about me.

I did not stick the boot in. What did I say that was sticking the boot in?