How is the trans issue ever going to be resolved?

[PassportPanicFuuuck]

It seems as insoluble as the Israel/Palestine question when the two "sides" want directly opposing things. I've heard the arguments that trans people "just want to pee" and that "no-one would go through medical/surgical gender reassignment purely to abuse women", plus the mantras that "trans people exist", "trans rights are human rights" and "trans women are women" and it's quite clear that the people who believe these things fervently aren't going to change their minds any time soon.

But to a certain extent, life isn't fair. Not everyone does have equal opportunities. If you're in a gay relationship (and there's nothing wrong with that) you can't have a biological child with your partner; if you're infertile (as I am) you can't have a child at all; if you're trans (and there's nothing wrong with that either) you can't enter the spaces of the opposite sex; if you're British you don't have an automatic right to go and live in the US; if you're short and unsporty you don't have a right to be on the Olympic basketball team - and so on. All sorts of opportunities are denied people at various different points, some as a result of decisions you make (like not studying for a medical degree means I can never be a doctor) and some not (see above re. infertility), and beyond universal human rights you don't have a right - one might say "entitlement" - to an awful lot of things, much as you might keenly want them.

Like it or not, once we end up in these categories we have to accept it. Absolutely no-one is eligible to do everything or to go everywhere. However if you have made a choice - even if you consider it to be more a recognition of something innate rather than a conscious decision - it doesn't mean that you have made this choice on behalf of everyone else. If you have chosen to transition (again, you may not consider it to be a "choice") you can't dictate that everyone else ignore biology and logic and linguistic authenticity and you can't dictate that everyone else will want to celebrate your decision. No, we don't have to accept the "lady bulge", we don't have to accept child abuse under the guise of gender-affirming care and we don't have to accept men in female sports / changing rooms / organisations.

Not sure how coherently worded all the above is, but perhaps it will provoke some interesting debate.

Thanks for reading.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c623r47d67lo
A case study for you.

Over the coming months, Lang watched with concern as the purported cluster ballooned in New Brunswick. He emailed Marrero and left messages with his secretary offering help, but never heard back. In late 2023, frustrated by what he saw as cluster misinformation everywhere, Lang decided with colleagues to mount a study. The results — published in May 2025 in the Journal of the American Medical Association, JAMA — landed in New Brunswick like a hand grenade.

Lang and his co-authors — including several former Mind Clinic colleagues of Marrero and the concerned neuropathologist, Gerard Jansen — found that all 25 patients in their study had suffered from previously known conditions, from functional neurological disorder to dementia to cancer. The probability of there being no new disease was close to 100%, they said. The real cause of the cluster, they concluded, was serial misdiagnosis by Marrero, compounded by credulous media reporting, the limitations of New Brunswick's public health system, institutional distrust sown by the pandemic and the actions of a small group of people "co-opting the crisis to suit their agenda".

And

An upcoming provincial report could offer some answers. Unlike the previous studies, it will examine the claims of elevated glyphosate and heavy metals in the patients. At times, the stakes seem impossibly high. "Lives hang in the balance," read a recent letter to Premier Susan Holt, signed by 72 of the patients. "It is within your power to honour them, cherish them, and care for them," the letter said. "Or you can abandon them and let them wither, fade, and ultimately die. Please join us on the right side of history."

The patient advocates, led by Bloodwatch director Kat Lanteigne, have arguably done more than anyone to keep the story of the cluster going, with an operation that includes lobbying the government, briefing the press and sending legal letters to scientists.

Lanteigne has publicly attacked both Jansen and Lang over the JAMA study, branding their work inaccurate and unethical. She denied harassing Jansen, saying she had never spoken to him directly and emailed him only once. "I have a record of speaking truth to power and I have always worked with integrity and honesty," she said.

Both Lang and Jansen are standing their ground.

"What we have here is a case of misdiagnosis, evolving to misinformation, and sadly resulting in suffering for patients and families," Lang said.

"I would even go further," Jansen said, regarding the alleged misdiagnosis of the patients. "I would say they are being abused."

Now maybe they WILL find evidence to demonstrate there is an environmental issue here. But it's a bit weird it's only patients of one doctor that seem to be affected and they've become self selecting.

There's many parallels here that are slightly unnerving as you read through the actual.

I'd love to know why anatomy text book illustrations are "under review".

Description of first image: Six panels, Five containing identical front aspect cut-away drawing of the female lower abdomen, showing placement of the uterus, ovaries, and vagina. These five images are captioned individually as follows: white woman, black woman, latin woman, asian woman, indian woman. The sixth panel contains a side aspect cut-away drawing of the male lower abdomen, showing the testicles, vas deferens, prostate, and penis. It is captioned: trans woman.

Description of second image: multiple panels showing side-aspect cut-away drawings of gravid female abdomens at varying stages of gestation.

Not sure why that hasn't been approved.

What we all have in common is being scared of violent cis men, being harassed and assaulted by them

So confusing - so does this mean that if we end male violence I don't have to worry about ovarian cancer?

It would only be possible to answer this question by finding out whether transmen still exist in a society where all sexism has been eliminated and males are never granted any more respect or autonomy than females. It is not possible for any transman to untangle what components of what has led to their decision are fundamentally based on dysphoria and what components are rooted in an overwhelming cultural narrative that men are worth more overall, and women have value that is directly proportional to their willingness and ability to perform to comply with sexist stereotypes. Once a new feminist utopia has been established where that sexist cultural background has been eliminated, there will still be some women with dysphoria but it's impossible to speculate what that would be like and how it would manifest in the absence of the sexism that we currently have.

Women have been adopting a male persona in order to access respect, autonomy and participation in society on their own terms rather than restricted by the roles that society will allow for a woman for many many centuries. That's not a fettish, it's an entirely understandable human desire for liberty. Although women do have more freedom now than we did 150 years ago our lives are still circumscribed by patriarchal structures and attitudes that have not gone away.

The sexism is perpetuated when those women whose need to escape those structures is so strong that they completely reinvent themselves are categorised as something "other", something special (ie "actually a man") rather than showing that the structures themselves are wrong and must be destroyed.

There's no evidence that TIFs are turned on sexually by the idea of being male. There may be one or two I suppose, because there are always outliers, but generally this is not a thing. Tomboys are a thing and always have been but we didn't use to tell them they were actual boys and put them on puberty blockers. Girls who are scared of becoming women in a patriarchal, pornified misogynistic society are also a thing.

The answer to this is feminism not transitioning but these girls and young women are being sold a lie that they can escape womanhood.

There are no middle aged female transitioners as far as I am aware. Only men transition in middle age and it's almost always for fetishistic reasons. Women don't do this.

I agree with most of what you say, but can think of at least 3 middle aged trans men - Scott Newgent and Buck Angel (both vehement campaigners for NOT transitioning children and in Scotts case for not transitioning older, vulnerable women also) and then that awful law professor Stephen Whittle.

I guess these would be the outliers. I still maintain that it's not generally a thing with women. I suppose it's because most women just don't have these paraphilias the way men do. If they did, we'd be seeing the same large cohort of middle aged transitioners in women as we do with men.
Whittle is just out of her mind. The internalised misogyny is strong with that one. Awful woman.

There is also Dr Sam Hall that evil activist Brighton GP.

There are no middle aged female transitioners as far as I am aware. Only men transition in middle age and it's almost always for fetishistic reasons. Women don't do this.

I was 38. Though, granted, I would have done it much earlier if I'd been mentally free to do so.

According to Wikipedia Whittle came out as a trans man in 1974 at the age of 19. It was a long time ago. The Sex Discrimination Act hadn’t been passed and sex between men had only been decriminalised in 1967. Section 28 was in the future and it would be another 30 years before civil partnerships became legal.

I think Whittle just wanted to opt out of being a lesbian.

Times have changed but surgery and hormone treatment are permanent.

Sorry, I meant they don't do it for fetishistic reasons. I'm tired and not being very coherent. I'll shut up now.

Oh, okay! In that case, I certainly agree at least as far as I'm concerned 😄

Out of interest - and forgive me/ignore me if I am over-stepping - but have some of the things we’ve discussed re our experience of dysphoria, autism, trying to understand why our female children trans identify, resonated with your experience - or are we completely on the wrong track to understanding why DDs such as mine reject being girls/women? Is there more I could read/research from your experience to understand what she feels, rather than trying to view it through the lens of my own individual autistic/body dysphoric lens?

Just flagging this thread as possibly (probably) of interest to many on here:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5474467-an-urgent-message-from-athena-forum

It's a perfectly fine question to ask me!

Some of the things you and the others mentioned did make me go, "Hmm," but mostly it was, "Nope," which was important to me as it happens, because my son is autistic and I see some of myself in him.

One thing that did jolt me was the intensity of the feelings described. I don't remember my own feelings of dysphoria being so harsh! They were very present, from a very young age, but they felt more like something obvious rather than something I deeply hated. I "was a boy" just like I needed glasses: an annoying fact I couldn't do anything about, not something that caused me a deep distress. Even my very painful periods didn't make me hate my body for being female.

I guess I was used to it being "wrong" for being female in the first place, so it didn't overly disturb me when it became even more female ? I knew it was going to happen, I knew more or less what to expect, so puberty in itself didn't bother me that much. It was just more of the same, you know?

Wow, this is all you lot do huh.

Hating in a minority most will never meet, who don't have a hive mind.

Jfc what an absolute waste of time. Trans people will keep being born, going to school and work, and living their individual lives without your permission.

Hating a minority isn't just poison, it's a colossal waste of time.

A single quid donated to a charity like Childline will help more girls than a lifetime shouting hate at each other here.

All the TRAs have is bellowing 'hate' at anyone who doesn't offer full and fervent affirmation.

Astonishing as it may sound, there is nothing 'hateful' in believing biological facts like humans can't change sex.

Your username tells a tale alright,

I thought I'd throw in a mention of the "Bearded Lesbians" podcasts hosted by Aaron Kimberly and the earlier "Gender Dysphoria Alliance" podcasts hosted by Aaron Kimberly and Aaron Terrell. Both middle aged TM (US and Canadian) and interviews with other TM including the TM mentioned upthread and others too. They do talk about autism.

TLDR: "refusing to affirm" is not "hate".

All the transmen I know personally are big into yaoi (gay male romances written by and for women) and cosplaying male characters from Japanese and other East Asian pop culture IP.

Scott Newgent transitioned as a middle-aged woman, then regretted it, but continues to live "as a man" because she looks so masculine now.

Jfc what an absolute waste of time.

And yet here you still are! Amazing!

It made me laugh out loud when you said TRAs "don't have a hive mind". No one could have more of a hive mind than trans rights activists. No dissent or debate is tolerated.

Hello Again.

I think you are the poster who said previously that the the only thing women have in common is that they are abused by men.

Could you explain your logic?

I would quite like abuse by men to stop, so if it stops, do women cease to exist as a group? Where does this leave men who are abused by men?

Over the years it has been useful to know that a period is not a sign that I am 'bleeding out', but if women have nothing in common with each other, should they make regular visits to A&E each month just to check?

My grandmother didn't have the right to vote her entire adult life, but is your argument that nobody knew her sex, so she should have just voted anyway?

Thanking you in advance for your attention.

I don't believe anyone here hates people with transgender identities at all, despite your need to demonise those who have contributed to this thread.

It really is just another dishonest tactic layered onto all the others you have used.

Care to present any evidence to support your opinions that you have posted here about why any female person should agree that a male person with a transgender identity should be accessing any female single sex provision? It would be great to see the evidence that convinced you as a parent.

So far you have used the following arguments:

-We are denying the existence of children

-People with transgender identities (as they are known today) have always existed. (I don't believe a definition of 'trans people' has been offered by you to even start this discussion, which would actually be leveraging in historical people who have been politicised without their permission or without context. But you seem to have done it anyway).

-“I'm saying trans women are minority women." how? How are they any women at all?

-A false definition of what being women because it is not based on the commonly understood and scientifically established fact about the only women and girls in the world are those who share biology. ( you said :"Depressingly, what unites all women isn't biology, fertility or experience. We're all too different to categorise.")

-That male people with transgender identities don't still have male privilege.

All unevidenced, all just plonked down as if these claims have any truth. Along with a very long list of things to demonise and vilify women having a discussion you don't agree with.

Plus a very long list of hyperbolic narrative about the lives that is the common experience of children with transgender identities.

None of which the numerous children I know with transgender identities have experienced, many of your claims are also shown in the UK to be untrue, yet you make blanket claims such as these children in the UK are being killed and committing suicide because of transphobia. That is misinformation and you should stop spreading it.

So, please link up any evidence that convinced you about all your claims, please. I would love to see what you found convincing as a parent.

Depressingly, what unites all women isn't biology, fertility or experience. We're all too different to categorise

So how on earth does anyone know they are a woman?

Am I a woman?

Would be really helpful to pin this down!