How is the trans issue ever going to be resolved?

[PassportPanicFuuuck]

It seems as insoluble as the Israel/Palestine question when the two "sides" want directly opposing things. I've heard the arguments that trans people "just want to pee" and that "no-one would go through medical/surgical gender reassignment purely to abuse women", plus the mantras that "trans people exist", "trans rights are human rights" and "trans women are women" and it's quite clear that the people who believe these things fervently aren't going to change their minds any time soon.

But to a certain extent, life isn't fair. Not everyone does have equal opportunities. If you're in a gay relationship (and there's nothing wrong with that) you can't have a biological child with your partner; if you're infertile (as I am) you can't have a child at all; if you're trans (and there's nothing wrong with that either) you can't enter the spaces of the opposite sex; if you're British you don't have an automatic right to go and live in the US; if you're short and unsporty you don't have a right to be on the Olympic basketball team - and so on. All sorts of opportunities are denied people at various different points, some as a result of decisions you make (like not studying for a medical degree means I can never be a doctor) and some not (see above re. infertility), and beyond universal human rights you don't have a right - one might say "entitlement" - to an awful lot of things, much as you might keenly want them.

Like it or not, once we end up in these categories we have to accept it. Absolutely no-one is eligible to do everything or to go everywhere. However if you have made a choice - even if you consider it to be more a recognition of something innate rather than a conscious decision - it doesn't mean that you have made this choice on behalf of everyone else. If you have chosen to transition (again, you may not consider it to be a "choice") you can't dictate that everyone else ignore biology and logic and linguistic authenticity and you can't dictate that everyone else will want to celebrate your decision. No, we don't have to accept the "lady bulge", we don't have to accept child abuse under the guise of gender-affirming care and we don't have to accept men in female sports / changing rooms / organisations.

Not sure how coherently worded all the above is, but perhaps it will provoke some interesting debate.

The ideology is yours. I and others simply do not share it.

Good point! Leave the bees alone! They just want to live their bee lives!

The person being interviewed is FULLY transitioned. They even wrote about on their own blog. They also use women's single sex spaces, despite not having a Gender Recognition Certificate.

If you watch it and see and hear a woman then that will explain a lot.

FWIW I see and hear a man.

This is again misinformation.

This is actually one of the most heavily professionally moderated 'corners of the internet'. If you feel that posts have been abusive, you should report them and be cognisant that your posts will similarly be judged.

You have also misrepresented posters here from the start of your interactions on this board. You have categorised posters on threads as hateful without having understanding about what they are discussing, because you really have no depth of knowledge about what you talking about. That should not be a problem as many people use this board to gather the information that they need to become informed.

We have posters with all opinions posting links and many people read those links and form opinions. Also, many people ask questions rather than jumping in and declaring that there is so much hate on a thread or on the board.

Posters have responded to your points and disagreed. However, posters are also responding to your own accusations of specific poster and the board in general that you made from the start.

That’s a bloke.

Well this illustrates the problem with language. There is no such thing as being 'fully transitioned'. What did they transition to?

A genuine question (so that I am not misinterpreted as being sarcastic). Do you understand that if you enter a board and describe poster's opinions as being hateful from the first day that you are posting on the board, that others might read this post as being very hypocritical and tone deaf?

Given that by the time readers get to this post of yours a good few of your previous ones had been swiftly deleted by MNHQ may I suggest you look inwards and look at your own posting style. You appear more than capable of coming across in a sustained vile and dirty manner yourself in the face of disagreement.

No. They used to say that today’s news is tomorrow’s fish and chip wrapping, but a deleted thread on Mumsnet means less than that to people who didn’t engage with it.

Again, if you get nothing positive from participating in this thread, don’t.

Exactly. Fully transitioned merely means getting breast implants and getting your cock and balls chopped off/turned inside out, along with some hormones and maybe a bit of facial surgery. It does not change a man into a woman but merely into a man who has had some surgery and taken some medication. Why some people cannot seem to grasp this is beyond me.

Yeah. Now try and imaging how a rape survivor feels when she’s told her trauma means nothing compared to the suffering of men who can’t get what they want. Why is her suffering less than that of a man who is claiming not getting his own way is “torture”?

See this is what I can't understand @SoftBalletShoes

Why are you so quick to sympathise and support the men when it comes to this issue, but barely engage with women who are sharing their much more traumatic stories?

I'm sure you don't believe this is because you prioritise men's suffering over women's, but as an outside observer it's hard to conclude anything else.

I generally avoid this forum because I'm really torn on the whole issue. I have trans friends in real life, one of which I've been friends with since before their transition, and they are lovely genuine people who mean no harm, just get on with their lives, and don't fit any of the 'weird kink' stereotypes I see here.

However, I have seen and met other people who identify as trans for bad, disingenuous reasons, for attention, when they clearly have serious mental health issues, as a power thing etc. So it's hard for all of these people to be lumped in together.

I also think it's a difficult issue because there's the issue of men (cis men) pretending to be trans women to gain access to women's spaces etc. That's not a problem with genuine trans people, that's a problem with men, but it's part of the 'trans' debate.

It's just such a muddy issue with so many different things going on, I agree with some oponions here and not others, and it's hard to have open discussions without being seen as anti trans so the conversation isn't really going to be able to progress. So yes I agree in that I don't see how it can be resolved! The loudest voices are extremes on each end, and there's not a lot of space for reasoned debate somewhere in the middle

Everyone knows that a man without his penis and testicles is not a man anymore, just like a woman without breasts is not a woman anymore 🙄 So depending on inclination, you either demote them to the other sex, or on the contrary, you reassure them that they can be some sub-standard version of the other sex. What's for sure is they can't be considered normal and proper representatives of their sex, like you and-- well, not me 😛

Genuine question. Do you think that the nice men in your life who also do not wish harm on anyone, should be allowed in female single sex spaces?

Ultimately it comes down to quite a basic point though. Do you believe women have the right to their own single sex spaces or not?

That's not all it comes down to though. Say we had a law that said you must only use spaces the match your biological sex. Would that really be enough? I've seen people say they don't want trans people teaching children, for example, a classroom isn't a single sex space. (Unless a boys/girls) school. It's an ideological issue that's bigger than just what toilets etc people use, that's why it's such a tricky subject

This is it for me.

Do the sexes each have a right to single sex spaces - yes or no.

I would also add. Given the current state of the law, do you believe that trans individuals should obey the law?

Well no, but the whole trans debate is about much more than that as I just said in another post

Fundamentally though, that's what it's about. So do you support that or not?

I've seen people say they don't want trans people teaching children

That doesn't have anything to do with single sex spaces and would be covered by existing anti-discrimination legislation in the Equality Act.

Nobody is seriously suggesting that trans people should suffer discrimination at work.

There might be arguments about belief - should people be forced to use preferred pronouns? - but that is the same argument that you would have about religious belief.

I'm not really sure it's a fundamental human right, but I think women should generally be entitled to female spaces yes.

However, if everyone agreed on that and we passed laws about it, is that where the issue would end for you?

I'm not really sure it's a fundamental human right, but I think women should generally be entitled to female spaces yes.

generally?
Either they are or they aren't.