How is the trans issue ever going to be resolved?

[PassportPanicFuuuck]

It seems as insoluble as the Israel/Palestine question when the two "sides" want directly opposing things. I've heard the arguments that trans people "just want to pee" and that "no-one would go through medical/surgical gender reassignment purely to abuse women", plus the mantras that "trans people exist", "trans rights are human rights" and "trans women are women" and it's quite clear that the people who believe these things fervently aren't going to change their minds any time soon.

But to a certain extent, life isn't fair. Not everyone does have equal opportunities. If you're in a gay relationship (and there's nothing wrong with that) you can't have a biological child with your partner; if you're infertile (as I am) you can't have a child at all; if you're trans (and there's nothing wrong with that either) you can't enter the spaces of the opposite sex; if you're British you don't have an automatic right to go and live in the US; if you're short and unsporty you don't have a right to be on the Olympic basketball team - and so on. All sorts of opportunities are denied people at various different points, some as a result of decisions you make (like not studying for a medical degree means I can never be a doctor) and some not (see above re. infertility), and beyond universal human rights you don't have a right - one might say "entitlement" - to an awful lot of things, much as you might keenly want them.

Like it or not, once we end up in these categories we have to accept it. Absolutely no-one is eligible to do everything or to go everywhere. However if you have made a choice - even if you consider it to be more a recognition of something innate rather than a conscious decision - it doesn't mean that you have made this choice on behalf of everyone else. If you have chosen to transition (again, you may not consider it to be a "choice") you can't dictate that everyone else ignore biology and logic and linguistic authenticity and you can't dictate that everyone else will want to celebrate your decision. No, we don't have to accept the "lady bulge", we don't have to accept child abuse under the guise of gender-affirming care and we don't have to accept men in female sports / changing rooms / organisations.

Not sure how coherently worded all the above is, but perhaps it will provoke some interesting debate.

To be clear. I have done any character assassination or insults. I am not going to let that stand unchallenged.

it's not true that most women are tortured by being born women.

1. Arguably, we are. Every single one of us will face sexism. Every single one of us will fear male violence, even if it doesn't happen to us. Being made to live in fear is a form of psychological torture.
2. Even if you discount daily fear, that's a very Anglocentric view. In Somalia, some 90% of women are tortured physically with FGM. Around the world, women are routinely abused.

the genuine ones who have committed to transition and look just like women - the ones I posted

They look just like women TO YOU
Others may disagree
And it's NOT ALL ABOUT LOOKS
If you're not open to understanding, we cannot make you understand

This wouldn't work.

We already know this. Yes because of extremists on the trans side, not the GC side. Some of the worst "trans" males have all the paperwork etc. The officials will never tell them the truth about passing, they will cheat on the tests and they will never admit it. They still obviously hate and despise women. What women here would be brave enough to challenge Windy in the toilets by herself? Sorry he is obviously DANGEROUS. This is why they need to be all kept out.

The best "men in dresses" never want to use women's spaces. In fact that is part of their condition. It is partially because some crossdressers care about women's opinions, but more about avoiding confrontation. They get triggered by the idea of women seeing through the lie, and won't risk it.

Men like this already exist some here hate them others tolerate them. I personally think they are always are going to exist in a modern pluralistic society. However they are going to have to put up with women calling them out online and possibly in person even if they don't use women's spaces.

The real threat to them will remain not nasty women with opinions. It will still be men who decide that they want to bash or kill a man in a dress today. Because every so often psycho men attack other men because of sexual reasons, clothes, words or just because they are bored.

Men do this male on male violence even more than they attack women. This is the problem here. It is male violence. Your solution is not an actual solution.

You may as well say.
Why don't we test all men and give them a certificate to prove they are not violent criminals. The thing is the criminal men would rig the tests. Obviously.

Saying there are a group of men who should be treated as if they are women is not a moderate view.

Its imposing unworkable, unrealisic rules and ultimately a fantasy, at the expense of women and girls.

The caveats you suggest - hormones, surgery, voice, looking like a women, dont turn a man into a woman. And we can see that they dont.

What you want us to imagine is a perfect scenario where a man could look like a woman, and then agree that he should be treated as if he was. Or not as a man.

But we need to acknowledge who is male and female for safeguarding. You're reasonable view ignores that.

So in conclusion you pretty much agree with the general view on this board.

The response you were trying to type was

"I'm really sorry for not listening to you and upsetting you. I was out of order and didn't think about what I was saying properly. I got carried away and didn't realise certain things and I need to go and do some more reading up on the subject rather than charging in next time. Whereabouts on the forum is best to do this?".

But yeah we'll probably get more crap about our tone and manners and how damn awful we are and some more talking at us rather than listening to a damn word.

After two days of vicious verbal abuse that I withstood, that's how I felt - talked to as if I'm a thing, a nothing. Talked to as if I'm sub-human, garbage, The comparison is the most apt way to describe how the abusers here made me feel. I'm sorry if my feelings are uncomfortable for you, but that's the way the abuse here made me feel.

But, as we know, they don’t want separate spaces, do they?

In defence of using disabled loos - many Trans Men are autistic (my DD, and approx 70% of most TIFs per the Cass report, I think) so do actually qualify to use the disabled facilities - but a 4th/additional space for trans persons would ensure the retention of the disabled loo for people with physical disabilities who need easy and immediate access to a toilet/washing space.

Have a think about whether reaching for Nazi imagery several times when speaking to women about their rights in single sex spaces was the right thing to do.

"The comparison is the most apt way to describe how the abusers here made me feel."
That'd be comparing an argument on Mumsnet to the genocide of six million Jews. Yeah, totally justified comparison that's not hyperbolic at all 🙄

I have said either here or another thread today. Unless a trans person is disabled they shouldn’t use the disabled toilet. They should, of course, use it if they are.

the reason I don’t like the use of the phrase “third space” is because it moves the disabled one more rung down the pecking order in my head. It’s a fourth space. The third already exists and is taken.

I find it deeply offensive that you equate ‘mean words’ in an anonymous online forum with the atrocities experienced by Jews (and gays and autistics) by prison officers in concentration camps as they were being starved, raped, experimented on, tortured and marched into gas chambers.

I mean, oh my fucking god. Give your head a wobble.

As a general internet tip, nobody on this board has any clue who you are.

If you don't want to engage with the substance of the debate, and you aren't gaining anything from the discussion, it's probably best to step away.

Agreed. Was just pointing that out for less informed posters, of which we seem to have a few. 🥰

You have no concept of the difference between angry debate and true dehumanisation.

I agree. As much as I find it hard to post here at times, it’s nothing compared to my rape and SA (which means sexual assault) and they are, at a societal and individual level, as nothing to the atrocities experienced by Jews, gays and others in concentration camps.

Point of contention:

Debate means talking with and listening to other people.

It doesn't mean talking at people and then throwing a hissy fit and accusing them of being Nazis when they point out you are vastly out of your depth and insulting them with your bullshit opinions you've presented as incontrovertible facts.

Let's not try and suggest this was a debate.

I think you are being generous here, as nothing can minimise the awful and traumatic experiences you’ve had. I would hate to think you feel these are less worthy of consideration or compassion as a result of this - or other similar - threads. Sending a hug.

That's an outrageous comment. How dare you.

Keep digging.
You show yourself for who you are.

Invoking one of the darkest times in world history because you had your feelings hurt on an internet forum.

You keep on saying you posted "moderate views". As many here have said, you may feel your views are moderate, but they really are not.

I agree Taz that the positioning is very asymmetrical. The poster probably has no understanding of why it is asymmetrical though. That is the emotional manipulation of the group who has encouraged the positioning and people who then unthinkingly and uncritically take it onboard and repeat it.

im actually speechless.