How is the trans issue ever going to be resolved?

[PassportPanicFuuuck]

It seems as insoluble as the Israel/Palestine question when the two "sides" want directly opposing things. I've heard the arguments that trans people "just want to pee" and that "no-one would go through medical/surgical gender reassignment purely to abuse women", plus the mantras that "trans people exist", "trans rights are human rights" and "trans women are women" and it's quite clear that the people who believe these things fervently aren't going to change their minds any time soon.

But to a certain extent, life isn't fair. Not everyone does have equal opportunities. If you're in a gay relationship (and there's nothing wrong with that) you can't have a biological child with your partner; if you're infertile (as I am) you can't have a child at all; if you're trans (and there's nothing wrong with that either) you can't enter the spaces of the opposite sex; if you're British you don't have an automatic right to go and live in the US; if you're short and unsporty you don't have a right to be on the Olympic basketball team - and so on. All sorts of opportunities are denied people at various different points, some as a result of decisions you make (like not studying for a medical degree means I can never be a doctor) and some not (see above re. infertility), and beyond universal human rights you don't have a right - one might say "entitlement" - to an awful lot of things, much as you might keenly want them.

Like it or not, once we end up in these categories we have to accept it. Absolutely no-one is eligible to do everything or to go everywhere. However if you have made a choice - even if you consider it to be more a recognition of something innate rather than a conscious decision - it doesn't mean that you have made this choice on behalf of everyone else. If you have chosen to transition (again, you may not consider it to be a "choice") you can't dictate that everyone else ignore biology and logic and linguistic authenticity and you can't dictate that everyone else will want to celebrate your decision. No, we don't have to accept the "lady bulge", we don't have to accept child abuse under the guise of gender-affirming care and we don't have to accept men in female sports / changing rooms / organisations.

Not sure how coherently worded all the above is, but perhaps it will provoke some interesting debate.

Thing is. I don’t believe you about the flowers and tears and solidarity. Because your actions after say otherwise.

that’s the thing. People can say whatever they like. And they will to manipulate. And get where they want to be.

funny that.

Er, no?

The world doesn't hate me for being trans. Not at all. And I have faced far more problems from being a woman than from being trans.

Completely agree - no idea where this expectation of being entitled to do and be whatever we want comes from - social media, film and television, perhaps? It’s certainly not the dialogue I had with my children growing up.

I have answere them. You just need to scroll up.

Thanks for demonstrating that you were, indeed, lying when you said I wrote vile and disgusting things to Taztoy. You have nothing to say when challenged. And she literally just lied saying that I had said she was getting Alzheimer's, when I had written that I must be getting it. She even denounced it as a cruel thing to say to her!!!!

What actions? I was nothing but nice, but you continued to rain insults down on me.

I believe you that you didn't think I was genuine, though. And that's a shame, because I really was.

Hard disagree. Especially if you are a woman in Afghanistan - just as an example.

And I’m not being whatabout-ist about that. My family were Iranian exiles in the 70’s being unable to return after the Shah was deposed (diplomatic family). They lost everything but chose to remain here in the UK precisely because of the freedoms my aunts would have here. My elder aunt would have been forcibly married off in her teens (ie subject to rape, teen pregnancy) and denied an education and normal western freedoms had she returned with my grandfather. Instead she got a PhD and was a consultant to NASA and independently wealthy by the age of 40.

So no, trans women are not more tortured and restricted in their lives than many, many hundreds of thousands - millions, in fact - of women around the world.

I haven’t ever once insulted you.

I have disagreed with you. But not once have I ever insulted you.

Wow. Transwomen are the most powerful, most privileged, most celebrated and most protected Sacred Caste there is. They have their Male Privilege and they also have the golden untouchable status as trans. Their sex is their oyster. Females however are objectified and treated like crap from the day we are born. Men 'tortured'? What a load of gaslighting bullshit!

Hard agree!

Understanding that sex is a different thing to gender is not extreme. It's also the foundation of the concept of being transgender.

Explain how realising that you can't change sex is extreme very slowly please? I mean this is kinda relevant to both women who are GC and anyone who is a transally.

How does this then translate to being GC being extremist? You literally have to understand the reality of sex to call yourself transgender!

The bit that's the sticky bit is the replacing sex with gender for practical applications.

Given we've had about a hundred years of understanding that sexist stereotypes are not a good thing, how come it's suddenly extreme to maintain this position? Given we've had about a hundred years of understanding the development and protection of women only spaces for legitimate reasons, how come the reason for this have suddenly been forgotten and ignored and are now being called extreme.

I confess I'm really rather struggling with the totally outrageous cognitive dissonance and deliberate smearing of women understanding the word 'sex' and recognising sex does not equal gender as being an extreme position.

Women have not moved an inch politically. They are being demanded to totally undermine their own protection to accommodate a concept that harms them and somehow they are extreme.

No. The answer is no.

This is totally not middle ground. This is abuse and coercion through blackmail.

Brilliant post.

No, you have NOT answered it, don't lie.

Thanks for demonstrating that you never intended to answer and are cowardly participating and in bad faith.

Taztoy, you ask above why I reported your posts. I actually didn't report your posts for a long while, the ones where I was posting respectfully and you just kept on and on and on calling me a liar. Which is clear projection, because you really seem to have an elastic relationship with the truth, going by just now when you literally lied in the face of written evidence that I had said you were getting Alzheimer's and denouced it as a cruel thing to say to you!!!!! When I had said NO SUCH THING and, in fact, had said that I might be getting it!

After being called a liar for about the twentieth time, and receiving a message from you that contained a record eight insults, all before you talked about your trauma - I was even going to let that stand - and you having been awful to me from the beginning to end, even though I sent you other nice messages in addition to the support ones, you finally pushed me too far and I went back and reported them all.

I don't think we should talk anymore. Or me to @ThatBlackCat. I think I've shown adequately that both of you have lied and lied and lied and lied about me.

I really won't be back, so the two of you feel free to have another lie-fest.

Oh dear.

Like a coward, runs away after being caught out lying and not wanting to answer questions because you can't back yourself in an argument. We all see you. Every silent reader on this thread sees your dishonesty and cowardice.

I didn’t even ever ask why you reported my posts. I just said that you kept putting “reported” as some sort of gotcha.

Take away the rights that women in the UK have accrued over the last couple of centuries, and I don't think things would be much different here.

The Married Women's Property Act passed less than 100 years before many women on this board were born, many of us will have grandmothers who didn't have the right to vote for their entire adult lives, and many of us will have been born before the Sex Discrimination Act and before Contraception become widely available. The concept of Domestic Violence is comparatively recent.

Women's participation in society depends on a framework of sex specific rights that we can't take for granted.

No, I didn't answer.

Annoying when people lie, isn't it?

I might have answered your questions except if they were a day ago or hours ago, like you said, I haven't the foggiest anymore what they were. And if I asked you, you'd probably say I was being difficult.

I don't think that you and me, or me and @Taztoy, should talk to each other again. I think that would be best all round.

What I said was you kept putting reported as if it would scare me off. Why did you do that.

That means. Why were you putting reported on the thread did you think it would scare me off.

it doesn’t mean. Why did you report me.

you can report away.

but you should be aware that putting “reported” and/or “screenshotted” on multiple posts by another poster may well constitute a breach of guidelines by MNHQ if someone was to report your posts.

I haven’t reported any of your posts . I prefer to let the posts stand.

Oh my God, Taztoy! You LITERALLY wrote above:

you did that on the last thread. Kept putting “reported” as if that would scare me off.
why do you do that?

Stop. Lying.

I don’t think you understand how mumsnet works and that you don’t get to control who posts on threads.

@Taztoy I'm sure you won't believe me, but you're the first person I've ever reported.

Why do you put “reported” as if that would scare me off.

I’ve already explained what it meant.

Good for you.

I misunderstood. I thought "why did you do that?" referred to the reporting, not to me writing "Reported."

I wrote "Reported" in a desperate attempt to stop the stream of abuse from you. But nothing stopped you.