How is the trans issue ever going to be resolved?

[PassportPanicFuuuck]

It seems as insoluble as the Israel/Palestine question when the two "sides" want directly opposing things. I've heard the arguments that trans people "just want to pee" and that "no-one would go through medical/surgical gender reassignment purely to abuse women", plus the mantras that "trans people exist", "trans rights are human rights" and "trans women are women" and it's quite clear that the people who believe these things fervently aren't going to change their minds any time soon.

But to a certain extent, life isn't fair. Not everyone does have equal opportunities. If you're in a gay relationship (and there's nothing wrong with that) you can't have a biological child with your partner; if you're infertile (as I am) you can't have a child at all; if you're trans (and there's nothing wrong with that either) you can't enter the spaces of the opposite sex; if you're British you don't have an automatic right to go and live in the US; if you're short and unsporty you don't have a right to be on the Olympic basketball team - and so on. All sorts of opportunities are denied people at various different points, some as a result of decisions you make (like not studying for a medical degree means I can never be a doctor) and some not (see above re. infertility), and beyond universal human rights you don't have a right - one might say "entitlement" - to an awful lot of things, much as you might keenly want them.

Like it or not, once we end up in these categories we have to accept it. Absolutely no-one is eligible to do everything or to go everywhere. However if you have made a choice - even if you consider it to be more a recognition of something innate rather than a conscious decision - it doesn't mean that you have made this choice on behalf of everyone else. If you have chosen to transition (again, you may not consider it to be a "choice") you can't dictate that everyone else ignore biology and logic and linguistic authenticity and you can't dictate that everyone else will want to celebrate your decision. No, we don't have to accept the "lady bulge", we don't have to accept child abuse under the guise of gender-affirming care and we don't have to accept men in female sports / changing rooms / organisations.

Not sure how coherently worded all the above is, but perhaps it will provoke some interesting debate.

“trans women are generally pretty tortured since being trans is really hard and the entire world hates you”

This is really hyperbolic and it is untrue. Who benefits from repeating this type of misinformation?

I haven’t abused you.

I have disagreed. But I have not abused you.

I think it will disappear to be replaced by something else eventually, although getting rid of the GRA will be difficult and I expect it will just become an obscure bit of law no one uses but never gets repealed.

The questions were repeated to you over and over. You even said you already answered it. Now you admit, as we all knew, that you lied.

You know you cannot defend your Ideology. So you cowardly refused to answer. You've shown yourself up.

You think? What makes you none of us were fully aware of this? You just thought we are all mean and nasty?

The arrogance and ignorance is off the scale.

You know if I could wave a magic wand and change someones sex I would. The problem is and will always be, that you can't no matter how well meaning and sympathetic you are.

This has ramifications for women and transpeople.

We can't pretend this isn't the case. It harms BOTH groups in various ways. This isn't an extreme position but an acknowledgement of reality.

The denial of reality and the constant need for validation is an obsessive trait. Unfortunately the person can never be satisfied because they know and everyone else knows they can't change sex. In some people it becomes abusive and in others it becomes traumatic. Both have implications for the individual concerned and those around them. This can not be appeased by being nice. This is the point. This is the source of all problems and issues and yes extremism.

This is not something GC people are responsible for.

Some of us have got to the position we have through realising that affirmation is a fools errand for everyone and only leads to continuing dissatisfied.

Some of us have realised in our old age that you can never be something you aren't. You have to learn to be at peace with that. Other people can't fix that - affirmation doesn't solve that because deep down you always know. Even if passing. And you know other people know and treat you as the crystal doll in need of protection rather than any other male or female.

There's far too much evidence of people fully transitioning medically, realising it not the fantasy they had envisaged and then sinking into yet more issues from that, combined with potential life long health problems as a result of the transition.

Unless we are honest about sex and how sex is not gender and that affirmation doesn't solve shit for many and instead causes problems and pain further down the line, we harm women and we harm transgender people.

This is not extremism. This is observing reality.

I regard attempts to characterise it as anything different as ignorant and ill informed at best. At worst it's just boring old homophobia and sexism. At its heart it can never work because it's foundation is a lie. This is the problem.

You can run and hide. You can imprison women. But this truth does not change. The only thing that changes is the size of the demands placed on others as the demands spiral and become increasingly unreasonable as someone fails to find peace in other people's validation of them. Because they know sex is not gender and they can never change sex. The rage some are having from this is unfairly being focused on women.

This is not our fault. It never was. It is the fault of people who lie and promise an impossible dream.

Why do you get to dictate who talks to you. You suddenly want to control others because they say things that are inconvenient to your position.

Let me make this clear.

It does matter what the fuck your opinion is. This can't be resolved by the use of lies. Lies that beget abusive behaviour and demands to fulfil them. And coercive and emotional blackmail when they aren't met.

This is never a solution and it never will be. Even for those of us who wish nothing more than to remove the pain of people we are close to.

We just understand that there is no middle ground to the truth. You either choose to tell the truth or fuel a lie that can never deliver.

One of the reasons TRAs hate GC women is precisely because they merely tell the truth and point out the inconvenient bits they want to deny. .

So the response is to smear, belittle, reverse, emotionally blackmail etc etc.

If they realise that GC are right about a point they hate it even more, because they realise they are looking daft or ill informed and it hurts their pride. They don't acknowledge this, because it's embarrassing and they don't want to 'lose' as if it's a game that can be won or lost. So again the same response.

Anything but admit actually I was wrong and you were right all along and it was never a game to play, just a reality we can either accept or lead a tortured drama in the depths of denying that reality.

No one wins. Everyone just gets hurt.

Reality is not extreme. It's just reality.

@RedToothBrush

I explained upthread that I was able to hear Old Crone because she spoke to me as if I'm a human being and not like a piece of dirt on her shoe, and her points were not obscured by lies and insults and smears and personal attacks and misrepresentations aimed at tearing me down.

But no, it's not that, is it, according to you? It's apparently because my "arrogance and ignorance is off the scale."

Posters in this corner of the internet can barely post without a minimum of two personal insults.

The amount of abuse I've received on this board is like nothing I've ever experienced. I feel absolutely emotionally beaten to a pulp after two days on here. I ended up calling some posters authoritarian extremists because you earned it. And that's the clean version.

There's a few seriously nasty bullies in this corner of the internet, and you know who you are. You take no care of the mental health of other posters if they don't agree with you, you just bash them and bash them and bash them.

I stayed because I will not be intimidated, but I've proved that, and now I'll leave certain bullies and liars to it.

But great to hear that you have learnt something from Crone's post, and that you understand why your proposal wouldn't work.

Pretty sure my post was insult free…

I don't think you are in much of a position to call others bullies when you have literally called women 'brown shirts' for the act of standing up for their legal rights.

Do you seriously not see a problem with that?

Third thread in as many days. Not serious people.

Exactly!

Plus the EU is proposing self-ID legislation as part of what they call their LBTIQ Equality strategy, which will absolutely be a problem on TERF island too.

The irony of us being told we dont take care for the mental health of other posters is not lost on me.

Blimey. You really do centre everything around yourself. Take a break. SM is not for you. Your arguments are too weak and your ego is too fragile.

The thing is, @SoftBalletShoes, you were talking absolute mince.

You can't let SOME men into female single sex spaces because they are, as described by you, 'tiny' or 'weedy'. Or they have taken cross sex hormones or had surgery.

If I was #teamletblokesintowomensspaces alongside you, I'd be pointing out that that is a) horribly unkind & discriminatory to big strapping 6'2 transwomen who might be just as gentle, nice & harmless as their 5'4 brethren & b) encouraging & coercing vulnerable people into harmful drug use & unnecessary surgery.

As I am #teamnothankyou, I am simply going to point out that women don't want ANY men-pretending-to-be-women in our spaces. They can campaign for additional unisex provision & good luck to them, & any women who want to share with them.

& frankly, you were seriously out of order in your responses to Taztoy. Specsavers FFS. Read the room.

The man who raped me is 5ft6 and built like a potato.

that doesn’t make him not a rapist.

There really does seem to be a disconnect in reality when claims of a group of male people being the most marginalised / vulnerable / hated / tortured people are used to emotionally manipulate female people into treating those male people as if they were female too.

And when you don't like the message you smear and snear about tone.

I'm sorry but I don't think you are a) sincere b) think you have demonstrated extreme arrogance in assuming that we are all pig ignorant about the subject when I can assure you most here know it inside bloody out c) have character assassinated from the off

And you expect us to be placid and cheerfully lovely despite your own tone deaf behaviour?

I have not come onto this thread from the start. I've commented after you've attacked and attacked and tried to provoke a response. And then attacked a vulnerable forum member.

Well here's your response. I am not going to be told what I should and shouldn't say nor the manner in which I should say it.

It's not my problem.

I'm not going to roll over and be lectured to by someone who doesn't know what the fuck they are talking about and I'm not going to pander to any of the premise of 'being kind'.

I have literally nothing to prove.

I know this will eventually collapse on the weight of its own bullshit because it's an ideology that can only do that.

You get to choose to be part of the problem by perpetuating the nonsense or not. You get to choose the degree of fallout by the scale of the lie and the maintenance of the lie. Me being nice about it doesn't change this.

I'm 19 years into this. There are no winners of this debate. Only people who get to exploit the implosion of otherwise sane politicians who have picked this hill to lay down and destroy all credibility on a lie.

Women have no choice but to say no.

Exactly. So trans identifying men as tortured but I’m just a woman. Even though I was actually tortured.

make it make sense. Please.

Thank you for seeing it and naming it.

But you’re advocating for women like Taztoy to be retraumatised. Can you not see the hypocrisy of your position. You say you understand why women would he traumatised by males in their spaces, but you have spent hours trying to insist women let males into their spaces. That is why people are angry. And crying faces and abd flowers will not fix this. It came across as you being sarcastic and nasty. Maybe you didn’t mean it that way but sending emojis to someone you’re trying to bully into resigning their rights is horrible and can be construed as minimising trauma and floating.

They hate women and think women are second class. They can still see the man bit in transwoman.

Thank you. This is exactly how I feel.