How is the trans issue ever going to be resolved?

[PassportPanicFuuuck]

It seems as insoluble as the Israel/Palestine question when the two "sides" want directly opposing things. I've heard the arguments that trans people "just want to pee" and that "no-one would go through medical/surgical gender reassignment purely to abuse women", plus the mantras that "trans people exist", "trans rights are human rights" and "trans women are women" and it's quite clear that the people who believe these things fervently aren't going to change their minds any time soon.

But to a certain extent, life isn't fair. Not everyone does have equal opportunities. If you're in a gay relationship (and there's nothing wrong with that) you can't have a biological child with your partner; if you're infertile (as I am) you can't have a child at all; if you're trans (and there's nothing wrong with that either) you can't enter the spaces of the opposite sex; if you're British you don't have an automatic right to go and live in the US; if you're short and unsporty you don't have a right to be on the Olympic basketball team - and so on. All sorts of opportunities are denied people at various different points, some as a result of decisions you make (like not studying for a medical degree means I can never be a doctor) and some not (see above re. infertility), and beyond universal human rights you don't have a right - one might say "entitlement" - to an awful lot of things, much as you might keenly want them.

Like it or not, once we end up in these categories we have to accept it. Absolutely no-one is eligible to do everything or to go everywhere. However if you have made a choice - even if you consider it to be more a recognition of something innate rather than a conscious decision - it doesn't mean that you have made this choice on behalf of everyone else. If you have chosen to transition (again, you may not consider it to be a "choice") you can't dictate that everyone else ignore biology and logic and linguistic authenticity and you can't dictate that everyone else will want to celebrate your decision. No, we don't have to accept the "lady bulge", we don't have to accept child abuse under the guise of gender-affirming care and we don't have to accept men in female sports / changing rooms / organisations.

Not sure how coherently worded all the above is, but perhaps it will provoke some interesting debate.

Thank you. Honestly, the way that poster spoke to me yesterday is one of the most awful ways I’ve ever been spoken to on here.

Me disclosing my trauma and postulating that it is what makes me so good at spotting trans identifying males and having a string of laughing emojis posted in response and being told I need to go to specsavers is something I won’t forget for a long time.

edited for clarity.

also was told I was vile and god knows what else for following that posters “but it’s ok if they’re stealth” arguments to their logical conclusion.

I've written LOADS on here.

Not an excuse. You were asked a question. Answer it. But we know why you refuse to answer...

It was a whole thread. MN deleted it.

I don’t have Alzheimer’s. That’s a pretty awful insult. I remember exactly what was said to me.

So why don't you explain it again on here then? Why are you avoiding doing that?

I'll ansqer your question when you answer mine. It's very concerning to me that I apparently wrote "vile and disgusting" things to Taztoy when I was so angry on her behalf at the terrible thing that happened to her and sent her support, and before that, had been careful not to rise to her considerable provocation, being measured and respectful in presenting my views. My memory is that she accused me of everything under the sun both before and after that support I sent. But both of you said I was vile to her. It doesn't add up.

Please tell me what I said.

You were asked your question BEFORE, in fact an entire day before, my post of some minutes back.

So YOU FIRST!!

From the Talk Guidelines:

If a whole thread is deleted, please don't start a new one repeating and/or rehashing everything. Most Mumsnetters consider that to be very bad manners - and, of course, it's highly likely that the new thread will be deleted, too.

I don't want this thread to be deleted too, so I request that you stop trying to revive a deleted thread, @SoftBalletShoes , please.

Some people like to frame themselves as being in the reasonable middle on this issue.

Then say the reasonable solution is that a self selected group of men should be allowed in womens single sex spaces and we can pretend that the space remains fit for purpose. Or that its reasonable to abolish single sex spaces and have single gender, and that would achieve the same purpose.

As others have said, that's not a compromise, thats two different ways of removing single sex provision. How does this benefit women?

I’ve told you what you said.

you reported and reported me on that thread when all I was doing was pointing out the logical conclusion to your argument.

you ostensibly sympathised with me, whilst telling me I needed to go to specsavers, and now that I must have Alzheimer’s.

you’re really coming across as very manipulative.

I will tip my hat to the regulars here. I never understood before why you take screenshots. I do now.

Oh yes, and how does it benefit women, is also another question SoftBalletShoes was asked hours ago. They never answered.

That's two answers you owe us, @SoftBalletShoes . Hop to it!

I wrote So, either someone is lying or I'm getting Alzheimer's, and I'd like to get to the bottom of which it is.

To reiterate, I wrote that I (might be) GETTING ALZHEIMER'S. NOT YOU.

NOT. YOU.

This kind of obfuscation on your part is NOT CUTE and also silly because everyone can see what we've both written.

Exchange screenshotted so no one can lie about it if thread gets deleted.

What baffles me is the insistence that a solution is a good middle-ground, when both sides virulently reject it (for good reasons, too!), and it would be cruel and illegal for any government to implement it anyway...

I mean, as a trans-identifying woman, I'm like, "Get off both my sides, mate!"

What is typical of TRA is to demand something unworkable and then change the subject from the demand to the response.

Men demand to be treated as women, then the outrage is that women say no.

It doesnt matter if we just say 'fuck off', or give a indepth thoughtful response, the tone becomes the issue.

I think maybe some people just like arguing, and just use a topic that they dont know much about as a springboard?

Aha, now we're getting somewhere!

The Specsavers accusation:
You said that you could not tell by looking who was male and female. I said that my eyes had proved a very reliable source in that regard, and that if you can't tell a female body from a male one, maybe you should go to Specsavers! 🤣 [Laugh emoji in original text to show that it was a joe.]

Would you say that this recollection is true or false?

The Alzheimer's Accusation:
Above, I wrote that I have a different recollection of the thread from you and your mate Blac Cat, and that it was so different I fear I might be getting Alzheimer's. I specifically wrote me, not you.

Would you say that this is true or false?

@ThatBlackCat These questions are aimed at you too. Did I make a joke about Spedsavers with a laugh emoji and did I say that I must be getting Alzheimer's or did I write that Taztoy is getting it, like she says I did? The thread is still up, so you can look up the answer.

“I care about tortured trans women and women”

does anyone else see what I see in this extract?

what about the tortured women like me? We aren’t worthy of special mention. My trauma was caused by a man. It’s immense. But people like me are just lumped in with the class “women” where as, trans identifying men get the epithet “tortured”.

They’re men. That’s it. They are a subset of the male. And that’s FINE. I genuinely have no issue with any man presenting, dressing however he likes. Do. Not. Care. But he’s not and never will be a woman and he and all the other trans identifying men need to either get men to be more accepting of the breadth of manhood, that presents in many forms, and/or they need to campaign for a fourth space. The third is disabled spaces and they can’t take that away either.

No. I will not stand for lies about me.

I don’t laugh about being able to identify men. It’s not funny. It’s scary. And traumatising. And reminds me of my rape and SA (which means sexual assault).

You did that. You put laughing emojis after I’d disclosed my trauma. Do you want me to relive it again for you so you can laugh again and tell me to go to fucking specsavers? He broke my ficking glasses in the assault so I had to go - with black eyes, bloody mouth, a broken finger, two cracked ribs, a broken tooth and internal injuries.

ha very fucking ha.

you’re not getting Alzheimer’s. You’re deliberately forgetting what you said to try to belittle me.

Wrong. The order was that I wrote a lighthearted joke that you should have gone to Specsavers with a laugh emoji to indicate a joke. Later, you described your trauma.

I put laughing emojis after you mentioned your trauma? Are you serious? I literally sent you a string of crying faces followed by a string of flowers and a sincere wish kill him and do it for free.

You are lying and lying and lying. Same as you lied just now saying that I said you were getting Alzheimer's when I said THE OPPOSITE.

Screenshotted.

Instead of arguing, you could have answered those two questions by now. You're not ever going to do it are you.

@ThatBlackCat Come on, BC. Cat got your tongue? You said that I wrote "vile and disgusting" things about Taztoy. So what were they?

You can't answer, can you? Because you're lying, like she is, thinking you can get away with it because the thread was deleted.

And yet when challenged, you can't come up with anything but lies. Like Taztoy lying that I sent a string of emojis laughing at her - she literally just wrote "you did that" - when I sent a string of flowers and tears and words of solidarity.

Or are you going to lie that I didn't do that?

@Taztoy Are you also going to lie about the support I sent you? Did those flowers and tears and sincere wish to kill that man and do it for free exist, or am I lying?

The 'common sense solution' that's unlawful? That 'common sense solution'?

Slow handclap for the person who doesn't have a clue about the subject matter but choses to lecture us.

Cat got your tongue? When are you going to answer the two questions you were asked A DAY AGO and a several HOURS AGO?

I only meant that trans women are generally pretty tortured since being trans is really hard and the entire world hates you, whereas it's not true that most women are tortured by being born women.

Screenshot away.

you did that on the last thread. Kept putting “reported” as if that would scare me off.

why do you do that?

I have survived one of the worst things that can ever be done to anyone. Literally the worst. I’m not going to describe it in detail because there are fetishists out there (overwhelmingly men, as it happens) who get off on it.

I said. I’m good at identifying men as a result of trauma.

that’s not funny and it never will be.

other women are the same. We are good at it because it keeps us safe.

you have presented no evidence, other than filtered photos off the internet, that trans identifying men are safe to have in female spaces.

And even if they were first, you’re basing it off how they look and that is subjective and discriminatory against those men who will never pass and can’t have surgery. It’s not allowed due to human rights laws and I agree.

also, they’re not allowed. The law says they are not allowed. Why should they be permitted to break the law?

they’re not allowed to “stealth”. It’s an offence. I can link you a recent case. It has picture of the offender as well - internet vs RL (which means real life).

And they have to take no for an answer. You don’t like my arguments on that you say I’m vile, but you’ve not actually countered what I’ve said. removing the protection of a no in intimate spaces weakens that no protection in the rape and SA (which means sexual assault) space.