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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #60

1000 replies

nauticant · 16/12/2025 22:37

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.
Following handing down of the judgment on 8 December 2025, on 11 December 2025, it was announced by Sandie Peggie and her legal team that they would be pursuing an appeal.

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6.

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September 2025 to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 28 September 2025 to 21 November 2025
Thread 55: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5447019-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-55 19 November 2025 to 8 December 2025
Thread 56: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5456749-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-56 8 December 2025 to 9 December 2025
Thread 57: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5457132-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-57 9 December 2025 to 11 December 2025
Thread 58: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5458443-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-following-employment-tribunal-judgment-thread-58 11 December 2025 to 12 December 2025
Thread 59: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5459115-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-following-employment-tribunal-judgment-thread-59 12 December 2025 to 17 December 2025

OP posts:
Thread gallery
38
YouveGotNoBloodyIdea · 24/12/2025 15:09

This is doing the rounds 😆

Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #60
TableRunners · 24/12/2025 15:12

YouveGotNoBloodyIdea · 24/12/2025 15:09

This is doing the rounds 😆

😆

NebulousSupportPostcard · 24/12/2025 15:15

prh47bridge · 24/12/2025 13:38

Sorry!

No no, the potential for a Christmas Eve 'stabbing' plot twist far outweighs any disappointment induced by your post.

As you were.

TableRunners · 24/12/2025 15:17

Hang on a minute everyone. This Christmas Eve we must remember the man who started all this.

Sad times.

Wackdemmoles · 24/12/2025 15:39

Courier: Top lawyers brand NHS Fife tribunal’s changes to Sandie Peggie ruling ‘unprecedented’
Joanna Cherry KC among legal experts warning more questions must be asked about the changes.
By Justin Bowie
December 24 2025, 11:07am

NHS Fife tribunal judge Sandy Kemp has been accused of “taking the trash out before Christmas” after making a sweeping list of amendments to the Sandie Peggie ruling.
Top lawyers, including Joanna Cherry KC, say the scale of updates made to the judgment is “unprecedented” and risks undermining trust in the courts.
Judge Kemp’s first change came on December 12 when he removed a bogus quote just hours after The Courier brought the issue to light and four days after the 300-page document was published.
On Tuesday night, he made a further 11 amendments to the ruling which included removing another incorrect quote and correcting the name of a campaign group.
This came despite the Judicial Office saying there would be no additional changes to the judgment after the first error emerged.
His corrections were described as “clerical” mistakes.
But legal experts say questions must be answered over how such mistakes featured in the initial ruling.

Joanna Cherry KC.
Ms Cherry KC, a supporter of Glenrothes nurse Ms Peggie, insists the tribunal must address claims artificial intelligence (AI) was used in the judgment.
Sharing The Courier’s article on X, the former SNP MP wrote: “Taking the trash out before Xmas isn’t going to work here.
“@JudiciaryUK office⁩ need to address this unprecedented situation and the suspicions that AI was used.
“Otherwise, confidence in the employment tribunal system will be undermined.”
‘Unprecedented use of power’
Michael Foran, an associate professor of law at Oxford University, says the tribunal should reserve amendments for minor clerical mistakes.
“This latest round of revisions is in my view an unprecedented use of a power expressly confined to amending clerical mistakes made by tribunal staff and the parties themselves in their submissions,” he said.
“What is most concerning is the attempt to use this power to remove quotations suspected of being fabricated and to remove quotation marks from other parts of the judgment.
“There remain outstanding questions about how these false quotations made it into the judgment in the first place.
“Presenting them as mere typographical errors with no further explanation is unsatisfactory.”
Mr Foran has been supportive of the nurse’s case.
The judge’s ruling on December 8 found nurse Ms Peggie was harassed by NHS Fife.

Dr Beth Upton at the NHS Fife tribunal. Image: Kenny Smith/DC Thomson.
That was due to the health board’s botched handling of the fallout from her row with trans doctor Beth Upton on Christmas Eve two years ago.
However, separate claims of victimisation, discrimination, and sexual harassment against NHS Fife were rejected.
All claims against Dr Upton, born male, were dismissed.
Ms Peggie is appealing the judgment, saying it “falls short” of what she hoped for.

NHS Fife tribunal judge makes 11 new amendments to Sandie Peggie ruling

It comes after Sandy Kemp removed a bogus quote in the judgment in a story by The Courier bringing the issue to light.

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/politics/5401267/nhs-fife-tribunal-new-amendments-sandie-peggie/

NebulousSupportPostcard · 24/12/2025 15:52

JanesLittleGirl · 23/12/2025 23:03

There will be a final amendment: "Ditch all and replace with 'because that is what I decided.'"

The Final Amendment will be the Netflix season one finale episode, with a satisfying twist that invites a commission for series 2-4.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 24/12/2025 16:03

Easytoconfuse · 24/12/2025 15:10

You can find the 'formal apology' here. It's not much of one imho. https://x.com/NotAllGays/status/2003561519439614156

To quote Francis Urquart

You may very well think so, I couldn’t possibly comment

Kemp has acknowledged and corrected the error so it would be hard to show any intent.
I think there are stronger and better grounds for questioning his impartiality and competence.

SternJoyousBeev2 · 24/12/2025 16:10

11 changes …I automatically think of this sketch when I see if hear the word “eleven”

And coming from a Scottish judge it’s even more apt.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://youtu.be/HbDnxzrbxn4?si=ozjeKCScAOrdEvHa

AreYouSureAskedNaomi · 24/12/2025 16:35

TableRunners · 24/12/2025 14:16

For me, the fact it was written as Not for Gays (note lack of capitalisation on the "for") was an indication of bias in the judge's office. Someone had clearly changed it as a joke. Not sure it makes much difference to the whole mess, though.

A bit like the deliberate mispronouncings throughout the hearings - Miss Peggie instead of Mrs Peggie, to make it sound like Miss Piggy. And Forshatter instead of Forstater.

NebulousSadTimes · 24/12/2025 16:38

TableRunners · 24/12/2025 15:17

Hang on a minute everyone. This Christmas Eve we must remember the man who started all this.

Sad times.

Noel-ulous Sad Times Xmas Sad

NebulousSupportPostcard · 24/12/2025 16:58

TableRunners · 24/12/2025 15:17

Hang on a minute everyone. This Christmas Eve we must remember the man who started all this.

Sad times.

It's incredible to think how many lives have been upturned because one entitled bloke doctor was determined to have his way in the women's changing room.

Here's to you, Dr Upton. May 2026 bring you everything you richly deserve.🚩

MyAmpleSheep · 24/12/2025 17:03

BrokenSunflowers · 24/12/2025 14:29

If NHSFife don’t then will he have to pay his own legal bill?

Yes. He might have legal defense insurance via the BMA, perhaps. Just guessing.

BezMills · 24/12/2025 17:36

The Judge on the Train Crash

Whit wey did thon nursie bring a suit?
Is she feart to change wi the doc?
Whit wey did she no jist get them oot
An wheesht when she didnae hae tae talk?
What’ll I dae for my edits the nicht?
Sleekit deletions - noo why no
Thae clerical errors ah'm getting it ticht!
Is the next version Final?

There’s LLM cant on every raw!
An’ havers! – sax or seeven.
I’ll credit Upton, at every ca'
She's sound neebs, as sure as I’m leevin’.
Wi AI delulu, we’re a’ in the dark!
But dinna be frichtit, my pal,
We’ll sune fix an edit the fibbie remarks
Is the next version Final?

Is yon an appeal I see in the sky?
It’s awfu’ wee an’ curly,
See! She's a coo and a hauf ootbye,
There's nae lassie pu’in’ ma hurly!
They’ve chackit the versions and gien them back,
Ahm seek fed up ae hearin thum whine still,
Lift doon the tippex frae the station'ry rack,
Is the next version Final?

There’s a gey wheen errors harboured noo,
And eh! did they hire KC Bruiser?
The highlihhter pen I was sookin’ the noo
Has tummelt an’ stuck tae ma troosers. . .
They'll sune be ringin’ ma retirement bell,
Ah’ll cry, ‘Mon, a man needs pey still’,
For I ken mysel’ by the queer-theory smell
That the next version's Final!

Liberally copied from one of my favourite poems

www.scottishpoetrylibrary.org.uk/poem/boy-train/

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 24/12/2025 17:40

@BezMills, that is pure dead brilliant. Thank you for the early Christmas present!

Boiledbeetle · 24/12/2025 17:41

NoWordForFluffy · 24/12/2025 14:09

She's blocked me on Twitter and I can't fathom what I could have done to cause it! 😬🤷‍♀️

She blocked me on Twitter and I had dedicated a book to her.

The stalking charges were dropped eventually.

These days I just hide in her hedge (snigger) and watch her through the living room windows when she doesn't close the curtains.

I am joking about the second (and third) sentence. But she did block me on Twitter. Someone else had to message her to ask her to unblock me.

Boiledbeetle · 24/12/2025 17:46

Vegemiteandhoneyontoast · 24/12/2025 14:30

Strange, similar happened to me and I was blocked by a poster called Terf Rocks, but I have no idea why.

So...
Is now not the time to mention I appear on a Terf Rock's rock?

Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #60
NoWordForFluffy · 24/12/2025 17:46

I am at least in noble company, @Boiledbeetle! Xmas Grin

Boiledbeetle · 24/12/2025 17:49

NoWordForFluffy · 24/12/2025 17:46

I am at least in noble company, @Boiledbeetle! Xmas Grin

She claimed an accidental block due to fat thumbs!

I have since forgiven her.

Now I just send her photos of her front door.

JustFish · 24/12/2025 17:52

BezMills, I salute you😁

Boiledbeetle · 24/12/2025 17:55

As Is Christmas eve...

Inspired by A visit from St Nicholas written by Clement Clarke Moore

A VISIT FROM DR DICK

‘Twas the night before Christmas, when all through the ward
Not a patient was stirring, not even the bored.
The stockings were worn by the man I'll call Bess
In hopes they'd go well with his after work dress.

The patients were settled all drugged in their beds
While visions of presents danced in their heads.
And Sandie was bleeding, right through her clothes
Had just had a flooding, which every lass loathes.

When in to the changing room Sandie did go
I heard she was met by a man who'd never heard no.
Away back through the door was not even a choice
Tore off her upset, and her discomfort did voice.

The man stood his ground and didn't back down
Gave poor Sandie a fright, the six foot tall clown.
When she told him his presence was not the done thing
“But I’m a woman, a lady, I'm a queen not a king.”

With his reasons so creepy and frankly quite odd
I know in my gut that he’s an AGP bod.
More crap from his mouth about how he'd the right
And he whinged and he whined late into the night.

“Now Sandie. Now Sandie. I'm a woman I am
On this I do swear I'm all woman, not man.
To the top of my head, to the tip of my willy
Now take off your clothes, and stop being silly.

As sure as the sun shines in the night sky
When up is now down. Now why would I lie?”
So up with his arms, as he took off his top
With a smile on his face, when his scrub bottoms drop.

And when he was finished Sandie tried to explain
The reasons beyond him, alas ‘twas in vain.
As he walked out the door she shook like a leaf
Down she sank to the ground in instant relief.

He was dressed in his scrubs when she'd gone to get changed
And was wearing his street clothes as words were exchanged.
A man that had been in no danger at all
And could have left at the start now started to bawl.

His eyes they were wet, his demeanour sooo sad
His mission right now, to paint Sandie as bad.
His self-righteous thinking, all the havoc he'd wreak
And that bloody witch, she’d wish she'd never dare speak.

The froth and the bile that would spill from his gob
And his aim in this all - to lose Sandie her job.
He had a phone full of contemporaneous notes
That helped him keep track of his lying and gloats.

He made up his notes about mean terfy Sandie
And saved them for when they might come in handy.
A twist of the knife and a tilt of his head
Soon all would bow down once gossip had spread.

He would show them who's boss, who's cock of the walk
And he’d close down the women, they’d now not dare talk.
And after he'd spoken to a female boss
And spewed out a load of his made up old dross

He was walked to his car to ensure he was 'safe'
And sent on his way, the poor little waif!
But I heard Sandie exclaim as he drove out of sight
"Happy Tribunal you arsehole, and to being proved right."

NebulousSadTimes · 24/12/2025 18:49

Steady with the poems, we're going to need another book 🤗

ProfessorIDareSay · 24/12/2025 18:57

“Now an audit of all the NHS trusts in England by a group of concerned women – and shared with The Telegraph – found that not a single one had protected spaces for female patients and staff.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/0a383bbf721288e5

NHS has no single-sex spaces for women

Hospital trusts ‘continue to defy the law’ after landmark Supreme Court judgment

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/0a383bbf721288e5

Boiledbeetle · 24/12/2025 18:59

NebulousSadTimes · 24/12/2025 18:49

Steady with the poems, we're going to need another book 🤗

Kermit The Frog Reaction GIF by Muppet Wiki

.

WearyAuldWumman · 24/12/2025 19:01

@BezMills

No sure about the next stop, laud, but the original stop was definitely Kirkcaldy.
Didnae hae tae look it up - kent the inspiration. Damned fine work sir!

A'll tell you - there definitely is a gey queer smell tae that judgement: it has "bias" written aa the way through.

PS

In my humble opinion in "Geordie Munro", the pronunciation should be "laudie" an no "laddie".

We aye said "laudie" in Cowdenbeath and an A ken fur a fact that bairns in Kirkcaldy still say "laud".

No, no, no, no, my dear The-o
No, no, no, no ma wee laddie...
You don't want tae go
Tae put oan a show,
No when ye wurk here in Kirkcaldy!

Sorry neebs. Christmas Eve brain. Best A can dae.

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