Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #60

1000 replies

nauticant · 16/12/2025 22:37

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.
Following handing down of the judgment on 8 December 2025, on 11 December 2025, it was announced by Sandie Peggie and her legal team that they would be pursuing an appeal.

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6.

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September 2025 to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 28 September 2025 to 21 November 2025
Thread 55: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5447019-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-55 19 November 2025 to 8 December 2025
Thread 56: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5456749-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-56 8 December 2025 to 9 December 2025
Thread 57: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5457132-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-57 9 December 2025 to 11 December 2025
Thread 58: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5458443-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-following-employment-tribunal-judgment-thread-58 11 December 2025 to 12 December 2025
Thread 59: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5459115-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-following-employment-tribunal-judgment-thread-59 12 December 2025 to 17 December 2025

OP posts:
Thread gallery
38
whatwouldafeministdo · 07/01/2026 19:13

OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · 07/01/2026 16:25

But then he completely lost the plot and started making stuff up.

That's the unfathomable part and I can still only think some kind of breakdown.

Maybe all the cognitive dissonance and lack of logic in TRA wants caused him to have a breakdown mid-argument for why the Emperor's New Clothes really exist and are not just a figment of a deluded male imagination?

PrettyDamnCosmic · 08/01/2026 09:00

MyrtleLion · 07/01/2026 12:49

I don't think he deliberately made a messy judgment.

I think he was trying to decide it solely on an employment law basis.and didn't really want to get into the trans issue. I also think he saw DU as a woman because he doesn't want effeminate men like DU in his own single sex spaces. Remember DU was in full woman face at the tribunal but would just be a long-haired man with a high voice in scrubs without makeup in the changing room.

Kemp didn't want to do anything other than punish SP for being female and working class. I imagine if it gets to a remedy hearing, he won't award her much compensation.

The trouble is by using AI in his judgment he has absolutely got himself into a mess on the trans issue and undermined his credibility as a result.

I viewed the proceedings & found Upton's woman face very unconvincing in particular his fake feminine voice. I don't see how Kemp could have viewed Upton as any kind of woman on the basis of his appearance & evidence in court.

NebulousSadTimes · 08/01/2026 09:06

There's none so blind as the true believers.

whatwouldafeministdo · 08/01/2026 09:08

PrettyDamnCosmic · 08/01/2026 09:00

I viewed the proceedings & found Upton's woman face very unconvincing in particular his fake feminine voice. I don't see how Kemp could have viewed Upton as any kind of woman on the basis of his appearance & evidence in court.

It all makes sense if you start from the assumption Kemp sees women purely as supporting cast in men's lives and not full human beings in their own right.

He then sees Upton as a special type of man, but as a man all women should bow down before his wants. So he's tied himself in pretzels to make the judgement conclude that yes, Upton has a right to use the women in the women's changing room as part of his 'affirmation'. They are all NPCs after all.

NecessaryScene · 08/01/2026 09:11

I viewed the proceedings & found Upton's woman face very unconvincing in particular his fake feminine voice.

"Unconvincing" in what sense though? Presumably you mean you found it unconvincing that he was female.

I don't think that's what Kemp was looking for though - I suspect he found it convincing that he was doing a serious "woman performance".

And a fake feminine voice is part of the expected performance from males doing this - so it is inherently "convincing" if that's what you're looking for.

I can imagine Kemp thinks the middle ground he's straddling here is "we won't let men with beards into women's spaces, but as long as they're clean-shaven, wearing some sort of feminine clothes and do a silly voice, of course they can go in".

TWETMIRF · 08/01/2026 09:21

TableRunners · 28/12/2025 17:55

GLP is not contesting FWS/the SC. GLP is contesting one bit of the EHRC interim guidance.

They are contesting reality

TWETMIRF · 08/01/2026 09:22

DrU sounded like Julian Clary to me.

teawamutu · 08/01/2026 12:16

whatwouldafeministdo · 08/01/2026 09:08

It all makes sense if you start from the assumption Kemp sees women purely as supporting cast in men's lives and not full human beings in their own right.

He then sees Upton as a special type of man, but as a man all women should bow down before his wants. So he's tied himself in pretzels to make the judgement conclude that yes, Upton has a right to use the women in the women's changing room as part of his 'affirmation'. They are all NPCs after all.

I think this is right. From the pov of Kemp and a lot of 'kind'/'progressive' people, you don't need the performance to be believable. Access to women's spaces is a kind of prize for effort. A bit like brownie points.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/01/2026 12:42

NecessaryScene · 08/01/2026 09:11

I viewed the proceedings & found Upton's woman face very unconvincing in particular his fake feminine voice.

"Unconvincing" in what sense though? Presumably you mean you found it unconvincing that he was female.

I don't think that's what Kemp was looking for though - I suspect he found it convincing that he was doing a serious "woman performance".

And a fake feminine voice is part of the expected performance from males doing this - so it is inherently "convincing" if that's what you're looking for.

I can imagine Kemp thinks the middle ground he's straddling here is "we won't let men with beards into women's spaces, but as long as they're clean-shaven, wearing some sort of feminine clothes and do a silly voice, of course they can go in".

Absolutely, and he isn’t alone in that.

whatwouldafeministdo · 08/01/2026 12:53

teawamutu · 08/01/2026 12:16

I think this is right. From the pov of Kemp and a lot of 'kind'/'progressive' people, you don't need the performance to be believable. Access to women's spaces is a kind of prize for effort. A bit like brownie points.

But really it's not access to the spaces, after all if there weren't women like Sandie Peggie in there to be made uncomfortable bully and get suspended then Upton wouldn't bother. They don't want private or mixed-sex spaces. It's the women these men want to use.

teawamutu · 08/01/2026 12:54

whatwouldafeministdo · 08/01/2026 12:53

But really it's not access to the spaces, after all if there weren't women like Sandie Peggie in there to be made uncomfortable bully and get suspended then Upton wouldn't bother. They don't want private or mixed-sex spaces. It's the women these men want to use.

I know the actual end goal is access to the women in the spaces, but not sure Kemp and fellow kindly twats think about it that deeply.

Sad man wants a thing and has put in a minimal level of effort, so he deserves the thing.

whatwouldafeministdo · 08/01/2026 12:55

NecessaryScene · 08/01/2026 09:11

I viewed the proceedings & found Upton's woman face very unconvincing in particular his fake feminine voice.

"Unconvincing" in what sense though? Presumably you mean you found it unconvincing that he was female.

I don't think that's what Kemp was looking for though - I suspect he found it convincing that he was doing a serious "woman performance".

And a fake feminine voice is part of the expected performance from males doing this - so it is inherently "convincing" if that's what you're looking for.

I can imagine Kemp thinks the middle ground he's straddling here is "we won't let men with beards into women's spaces, but as long as they're clean-shaven, wearing some sort of feminine clothes and do a silly voice, of course they can go in".

The fact that someone in a position of authority and responsibility like a judge can think a man without a beard doing a stupid voice and wearing a skirt = access to using unconsenting women as a validation tool (with total disregard for their rights as humans too) is both disturbing and mind-blowingly depressing.

whatwouldafeministdo · 08/01/2026 12:59

teawamutu · 08/01/2026 12:54

I know the actual end goal is access to the women in the spaces, but not sure Kemp and fellow kindly twats think about it that deeply.

Sad man wants a thing and has put in a minimal level of effort, so he deserves the thing.

Yes, deep or even middling levels of thought clearly not Kemp's thing. It does appear that indeed some of our Judges have the mentality of spoiled toddlers and expect Mummy women to put up with anything including human rights abuses if men scream loudly enough.

teawamutu · 08/01/2026 13:08

whatwouldafeministdo · 08/01/2026 12:59

Yes, deep or even middling levels of thought clearly not Kemp's thing. It does appear that indeed some of our Judges have the mentality of spoiled toddlers and expect Mummy women to put up with anything including human rights abuses if men scream loudly enough.

I've said it many times before, but the number of good, kind decent men I know (including my own husband, before I properly Terfed him) who would say things like 'well clearly they can't use the men's, so there needs to be compromise/where can they go but the women's?' and really not even get that they're blithely giving away the rights of half of the population without even thinking to ask us if we mind drives me batshit with rage even now.

And then you get to the selfish sexist assholes in positions of power, and...

SqueakyDinosaur · 08/01/2026 14:59

whatwouldafeministdo · 08/01/2026 12:59

Yes, deep or even middling levels of thought clearly not Kemp's thing. It does appear that indeed some of our Judges have the mentality of spoiled toddlers and expect Mummy women to put up with anything including human rights abuses if men scream loudly enough.

I was recently introduced to the word "midwit" and I think it applies beautifully here.

FallenSloppyDead2 · 08/01/2026 15:11

MyAmpleSheep · 07/01/2026 15:14

This is the most obvious flaw in the judgment, from the point of view of both GI and GC sides. It's clearly unsupportable to have a cadre of staff whose access to any given changing room is dictated by some kind of majority vote amongst staff, or some kind of consensus that will obviously vary month to month, organization to organization (or site to site, or floor to floor, or even day to day, depending who happens to be working where).

It'll be shift to shift. Think of all the bank staff used by the NHS

EmmyFr · 08/01/2026 15:37

I seem to have the same husband as @teawamutu . He feels for the poor ugly and ridiculous blokes in dresses in the male toilets (actually I think that without acknowledging it he finds them slightly disgusting and though he would never hurt them or even scowl he prefers not to have to see them). Although at least he would definitely decide that in the conflict of rights, a protesting woman should be given precedence. But she'd have to protest.

SparklingCrow · 08/01/2026 16:02

FallenSloppyDead2 · 08/01/2026 15:11

It'll be shift to shift. Think of all the bank staff used by the NHS

And it could change overnight if a single member of staff goes home and reads an article in a newspaper that changes her mindset.

A lot of women have a ‘peak’ moment.

ArabellaSaurus · 08/01/2026 16:03

teawamutu · 08/01/2026 12:54

I know the actual end goal is access to the women in the spaces, but not sure Kemp and fellow kindly twats think about it that deeply.

Sad man wants a thing and has put in a minimal level of effort, so he deserves the thing.

Yep.

Man is sad - Something Must Be Done.
Woman is sad - What's She Done To Deserve It?

MarieDeGournay · 08/01/2026 17:38

whatwouldafeministdo · 08/01/2026 12:55

The fact that someone in a position of authority and responsibility like a judge can think a man without a beard doing a stupid voice and wearing a skirt = access to using unconsenting women as a validation tool (with total disregard for their rights as humans too) is both disturbing and mind-blowingly depressing.

I think the judgement was based on whether or not DrU was in the changing room with permission, and the way in which SP challenged him.

Obviously we don't agree with the judgement or the judge, but he used quite a few of his 300+ pages explaining why he believed that DrU had his employer's permission to be in the CR, and SP overstepped the mark in expressing her GC beliefs, and he quoted a lorryoload of cases to illustrate his interpretation.

1013. What was to happen about the use of the changing room was not a matter for decision by the second respondent. Nor was it a matter for decision by the claimant. It was a matter for decision by the first respondent, subject to the constraints of the law. In our view, Article 8 of the Convention gives protection to the personal sphere of each individual, including the right to establish details of their identity as individual human being. That applies both to the claimant and the second respondent.

He also went into detail about the protected characteristic of gender reassignment, and how DrU was entitled to it, and that it is not based on 'looking feminine'. He specifically mentions that transgender people may retain the appearance of their original sex, and still be legally entitled to the PC of gender reassignment. He also acknowledged that some people think that DrU looks like a man.

898. The person may present fully in the gender after transition, or to an extent in the gender desired. If the latter that may be where most or some people looking at the person would be able to recognise aspects of physiological attributes of the sex as assigned at birth. There is not always a simple answer to the issue of appearance. Some such as the claimant regarded the second respondent from what she observed as male. Others who may observe the second respondent may regard the second respondent as a female....

I think the knots he tied himself up in trying to pin down when the right to protection under 'gender reassignment' kicks in, taking into consideration the past, present and future status of the 'transition':

942. We also consider that the terms of section 7 are instructive. Whilst sex is binary, as we noted above, the position of someone who has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment is not. We also noted above that there are three tenses used in the section – the future (proposing to undergo), the present (is undergoing) and the past (has undergone). That suggested to us in the present context that the stage at which the transition has reached, assuming it has commenced, is another relevant factor.

illustrates that legislating for things as vague as 'gender' makes the law look silly.

ProtectedlyInsufferable · 08/01/2026 17:47

Discussion of the Peggie judgment by solicitors Irwin Mitchell: contains the immortal ‘bold decision’

www.irwinmitchell.com/news-and-insights/expert-comment/post/102lz5j/can-employers-allow-trans-employees-to-use-opposite-sex-changing-rooms

ILoveLaLaLand · 08/01/2026 18:56

NebulousSadTimes · 08/01/2026 09:06

There's none so blind as the true believers.

At this point I don't believe a single adult actually believes they are the opposite sex.

It's all about special privileges for friends & family within a very privileged segment of society.

The judge just showed us what contempt the elite has for the little people like Sandie Peggie.

SwirlyGates · 08/01/2026 19:14

ProtectedlyInsufferable · 08/01/2026 17:47

Discussion of the Peggie judgment by solicitors Irwin Mitchell: contains the immortal ‘bold decision’

www.irwinmitchell.com/news-and-insights/expert-comment/post/102lz5j/can-employers-allow-trans-employees-to-use-opposite-sex-changing-rooms

"This decision does not appear to correctly grapple with the Supreme Court's judgment"

Indeed!

"If this decision is correct (and we don't think it is) it will create significant difficulties for employers." - followed by several reasons why.

MarieDeGournay · 08/01/2026 19:25

Thank you for the link, ProtectedlyInsufferable , this bit is good on the judge's idea that it was OK because nobody except SP complained -

It also assumes that if no-one actually complains that implies agreement. That's a very bold approach. Even if you conduct a risk assessment before putting in place a policy (which the tribunal recommends) how do you accurately gauge the views of your staff on an issue that many people feel afraid to express their actual beliefs? Anonymous responses would certainly provide a more reliable indicator but do you also ask your staff to explain why they object and how do you objectively analyse what they have told you? Do the concerns of someone who has experienced sexual trauma or with strict religious beliefs hold more weight than those of people who simply want privacy and dignity and are uncomfortable sharing spaces where they undress with members of the opposite sex?

teawamutu · 08/01/2026 19:37

MarieDeGournay · 08/01/2026 19:25

Thank you for the link, ProtectedlyInsufferable , this bit is good on the judge's idea that it was OK because nobody except SP complained -

It also assumes that if no-one actually complains that implies agreement. That's a very bold approach. Even if you conduct a risk assessment before putting in place a policy (which the tribunal recommends) how do you accurately gauge the views of your staff on an issue that many people feel afraid to express their actual beliefs? Anonymous responses would certainly provide a more reliable indicator but do you also ask your staff to explain why they object and how do you objectively analyse what they have told you? Do the concerns of someone who has experienced sexual trauma or with strict religious beliefs hold more weight than those of people who simply want privacy and dignity and are uncomfortable sharing spaces where they undress with members of the opposite sex?

And even if the current lot consent (freely or reluctantly as explored above) - are you going to re-consult every time a new woman joins your staff? Won't it be a teeny bit obvious if the permission is suddenly revoked?

Hayton claimed he used the ladies on this basis iirc. Never had a good answer for whether new women got a vote.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.