Kelly v Leonardo Employment Tribunal 29th September 10am

[ickky]

Hello

Don't know much about this case other than Naomi Cunningham is representing Ms Kelly.

If you want to observe send an email to

[email protected]

Subject line

Ms BM Kelly v Leonardo UK Limited Employment Tribunal – hearing Case number: 8001497/2024

Ask for the link and pin to observe.

State you are a member of the public and give your full name and the email address you will use to access the tribunal.

Anyone interested?

Thanks for the messages of support everyone, I will try to join it tomorrow and maybe just use my initials if they allow that (they have my name and email anyway). Anyone know if the pin and link are the same?

It may be worthwhile emailing, explaining the situation and asking them if you could use initials or a different name going forward. You would hope they were receptive to potential doxxing of observers.

Link and pin remain the same throughout

I saw one once at my kids school. My toddler could have done a better job with her felt tips.

I prefer Diet Coke. Full sugar has an odd mouth feel to me. Although if I’m out for a meal I’d really like a glass of wine

That's the sugar having a party on your taste buds!

I also don't understand what ST was getting at. Was that the extent of her questioning?

Starting to think this case might actually run to time. Unless the respondent's witness goes in for convoluted word salads instead of clear answers.

I took it as ‘Anything I say, don’t take it personally. I’m just doing my job’

I took it as ‘Anything I say, don’t take it personally. I’m just doing my job’

Is this one of those "My client instructs me to say.." type of statements? I.E "I think they are talking a load of hogwash but I have to try to put their case to the best of my ability."

It just needs a pineapple and some wine to draw the 'thin red line'.

Thanks to everyone today. I have got a login but no hearing yesterday and today’s late start meant I couldn’t watch.

MK sounds a clear witness and I think ST is going for the - you could use the accessible toilets, law wasn’t clear, now it is L is complying defence.

I regularly had to review them in my last job. I always sent it back with the first comment being 'You [or 'Please tell HR that they', depending who'd written it] need to fix the assessment template. Field 4 does not correctly state the protected characteristic in the Equality Act, which is sex - not gender.'

At least 5 years of that. They never fixed it.

Maria is a great witness. The toilet issue frequently boils down to arguments about safety but I think she explained the dignity and privacy issues magnificently.

Well done that woman!

Hope she's currently sat in front of a huge G&T and a monster bowl of crisps.

If there’s only 1 leonardo witness I wonder if they’re just trying to keep their head down and get this over asap?
They’ve seen the absolute shit show in Fife and the more witnesses they called the worse they looked. I also wonder if they may have had some difficulty getting witnesses to stand up in court now they’ve seen the reputations of Fife witnesses go down the toilet!

Adding my thanks too. I angry that M has had to put herself through this, but in awe of how she has handled it.

Musing on who the Respondents will call as a witness, it seems unlikely to be one of the three TIMs referred to as A, B and C today. Most likely someone from management wheeled out to bluster about how much the company really, really cares about women. I wonder if they've seen NC in action.

She's continuing with her questions in the morning, it was just a good point to stop for the evening

I've read through TT but what's her actual claim /argument please?

That the only suitable loo is too far away? It wasn't very clear how far...

I sympathise as I have to go up stairs and round the corner but...I haven't raised an ET claim!

I used to wrap a jumper/cardigan/coat round my waist if I was worried I might have leaked.

Her employer let's men in the women's toilets.

@ThatPithySheep excellent point earlier that's been pissing me off anew since I read it:

"The bit that really annoys me is that if the SC judgement had gone the other way it would have been implemented that day."

So fucking true. Can you imagine organisations weeping and wailing and hedging and trying to work out how to comply in a way that didn't make women unhappy...?

For. Fuck. SAKE.

Go get em, Maria and Naomi. Eviscerate the fuckers.

15153161 Female engineer began using 'secret toilet' at work after seeing trans colleague in women's restroom, employment tribunal told | Daily Mail Online

It seems to be (?implicitly) agreed that no TiMs will be present or identified and both sides are being very respectful of that. I agree that Leonardo are here for damage limitation, if Naomi will be so kind as to allow it.

So that's three weetabix for breakfast for Ms Cunningham please, waiter! Just for starters....

Yes, because “open justice” is denied if women are too afraid to watch because we have seen women be attacked in a variety of ways, for years on end.

I wasn’t able to listen to the majority of the afternoon session so the updates from TT have been invaluable.

Thank you both!!

Thanks. I agree that's unacceptable oc.

But now there's a fully enclosed toilet/sink she can use, as I understand it, that her employer has changed to meet her needs. So I guess they must argue they have resolved the problem.

It is a legal requirement to provide sufficient, separate single biological sex toilets or fully separate room toilets with sinks.

It also seems that she found out about this trans policy from colleagues at another site. So presumably not claiming she was harassed by unexpected male presence.

Musing further on the anonymity given to the TIMs encountered in the Edinburgh office, I have some sympathy for private individuals who find themselves caught up in this case and don't want to be in the public eye. Just use the right toilets guys!

But I don't think an 'out and proud' trans employee with an activist public profile would be deserving of the same anonymity. I don't see any justification for that.