Kelly v Leonardo Employment Tribunal 29th September 10am

[ickky]

Hello

Don't know much about this case other than Naomi Cunningham is representing Ms Kelly.

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Subject line

Ms BM Kelly v Leonardo UK Limited Employment Tribunal – hearing Case number: 8001497/2024

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Anyone interested?

From TT

MK: So we take summer students every June, and we had had one from a female student, whose CV indicated trans and a male name. Student very good, but we had no policy still post Supreme Court - and this tribunal was pending - so I talked to my lawyer

MK: Wanted to know whether we should advise the student which toilets to use, situation very sensitive. Was told that there wd be no problem for me if I passed the Q to HR - I wanted the student to have a positive experience with us. Needed to know I would not get into trouble for raising this.

somebody has a❤, bless them.

Leonardo UK Lurkers: for clarity, you don't need Maria to help bring your appalling shitstorm of a company into disrepute. You are performing over and above on that metric already, you low-life [redacted] [redacted] scum.

From TT

NC: Can you tell tribunal about legal advice - not its details, but the topics.
MK: It had taken a year to get confirmation that R was letting men use the women's toilets and were not telling the women, so I wanted to take advice about whether I had understood the law.

MK: So that was when I decided to raise a grievance, so that costs item I have there is for the legal advice I took to make sure I was on the right track.

@NebulousSupportPostcard That was her solicitor I think, the judge and panel members are hidden to the left of the view.

She's the ultimate teabag. You don't find out how strong she is till she's in hot water, and I'm grateful to her for having the guts to make it clear how distressing it is. There was a packet of Tunnock's caramel wafers in the room. If Beetle can have a support cat then they were my support... What the (insert expletive of choice) happened to be kind?

From TT

NC: Tell us about diversity training
MK: New one came out 2018 and everyone had to take it - not just new starters.
NC: Is it still mandatory?
MK: It is for new starters. But the 2018 diversity has not 'come round' again for me.

NC: How do you know it has not come round?
MK: We use a system by Workday that manages the training requirements we each have. And when I changed jobs, a human reviews where you are just to check.

From TT

NC: [missed]
MK: When I started grievance I looked back over the training, was not aware of any changes, though was told there might be a review bcs of new legal requirements re sexual harassment. But have not seen new version yet.

NC finished

Break now for five mins I think

Thats the same as at my last place (HE). Amd it kept sending you reminders until you did it. Now I knew exactly how to pass it, but I had to lie to myself to do so. It was appalling. I didn't have the strength of these women to fight back, for which I am ashamed.

From TT

NC [missed - includes ref to Forstater]
MK: I raised a couple of points about the definnitions and things but was told no, no change post Supreme Court or anything else - only the new rules re sexual harassment.

NC: That's all my Qs.

[they discuss taking a short break at this point and decide to do so]

TT's 1st Afternoon tweets

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1973374833237848345.html

While they are on a break....

My own workplace has kind-of secret toilets for both sexes. Single user rooms with basins etc inside, behind the firedoor in little-used stairwells at the end of corridors. They're all labelled either for men or for women. We have other single and multi-cubicle toilets all labelled for men or women.

I have thought for a while that it would help everyone if the single-user rooms were rebranded unisex and all provided with sanpro disposal and properly signposted for the people who can't bear to use the facilities for their own sex. And to keep everything else as it is. So no need to sneakily use wrong-sex toilets, no need for women to worry.

But I haven't dared to raise this at work because I mentioned it to a friend who responded it would be "outing" for a trans person to use the unisex facilities. My workplace has no toilets apart from the "accessible" ones that a transwoman can legally and comfortably use because it would be "outing" to provide any. And this is somehow less transphobic than providing some. Go figure.

Maria is so good. Naomi is barely having to guide her to give relevant evidence, it's more like gentle prompts than involved questions, and each time Maria is off

again, checking her bundle and volunteering comprehensive information on all the actions she has taken to address matters appropriately.

I hope the CEO at Leonardo Losers is feeling utterly sick to know his international peers may be watching one of his best employees telling the world why she doesn't know if she can continue to work there.

You're a prize plum, Clive. What the hell is wrong with you?

https://x.com/LDO_UKCEO/status/1970859282498556030

Just realised they are back in the room and started

From TT

We expect this next session to be cross-examination of the claimant Maria Kelly (MK) by the respondent's barrister Susanne Tanner, KC (ST)

[We resume]

Poor MK, I hope she's OK...

From TT

ST: confirming information about no of employees at Edinburgh site - 2848, male 2361 female 587. That's from R's Workday system, so that 'sex' is how people identify. That's not the same as the number physically on site at any given time.

I hope she can take Leonardo for every penny they've got. Their bullying is off the scale. To tell her that she couldn't crowdfund because it would damage their reputation is outrageous.

From TT

J: Is this the first time you have heard the number? Do you want to take instructions about it? Come back to me on that later.

[Missed a Q from the J - sound very poor]

ST: Before I start - you are entitled to your own views and would just like to confirm that what I say does not indicate my or Leonardo's views on any matter. Shall be using language used by the Supreme Court.

Isn’t that victimisation/anti whistleblowing practice?

I thought it might qualify as victimisation. But it doesn't seem to be pleaded. I'm sure NC knows better than me!

From TT

ST: You've been at Leonardo 17 years?
MK: 18 now yes
ST: Recent job role change? Move to different desk?
MK: Yes

ST: You're not a member of Unite, never have been?
MK Correct
ST: When you were in discussion with Unite, was that about joining union?

From TT

MK: They approached me when I got involved in JCC - wanted me to be a woman's branch officer. I felt, they wouldn't be supporting me on the thing that was most in my mind at that point. I talked to one officer and had that confirmed. Discussions over 6-8 months.