NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #51

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:
drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 50: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5387893-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-50 7 August 2025 to 1 September 2025

Or maybe right whinger..

I find reading the submissions from NC (speaking notes as well) like a breath of fresh air. It is all just so clear and well argued and logical. It is honestly an enjoyable treat. If only more people could read this to really understand this issue of the clash between trans rights and women's (and children) rights.

<Tries new username>

This is why all of these pieces of legislation aimed at protecting vulnerable groups were enacted

I thought the goal of PCs was to enable equity, because different people need different rights, regardless of how vulnerable they are.

Speaking as a woman, I’d rather not be vulnerable, but barring a massive evolutionary leap, there won’t ever be a time when women won’t need sex specific rights because men don’t need to worry about pregnancy.

Is she also aware that some characteristics like age and sex have universal application?

Trying

out the large fonts.

But my cat once managed to turn the writing on my screen upside down.

Naomi was brilliant.

Jane Russell could bore for the whole world.

The Name That Must Not Be Spoken is now trending Number 1 on TwiX. 😀

Article in the Times. I can't judge how accurate this is, I haven't caught up yet:
https://www.thetimes.com/article/a07d7cb6-526b-4739-aae3-585bcba61691?shareToken=945d5cfe7bb70a656b5be06a9e5cb039

Yikes, almost halfway through this new thread already! Thanks @nauticant
More speed reading to do... after reading about Naomi's submissions in last thread I'm even more a fangirl (if a toolkit can identify as being a girl)? I cheered at Pete's welcome on the thread!

Filibustering out of time to give prep time overnight...

I’d really appreciate this but it’s not letting me pm you. If you have any left, please pm me. Thanks!!

But doesn't she only have two hours totes? And this is giving arguments, not discussing evidence.

I think she is trying to veeeery sloooooowly make the panel and judge think the things that were debunked, were not debunked.

Reading through NC's submission.

Reminded of the how much more important feelings are than recollection of actual events. Dr Pitt describing DU relaying the Christmas changing room events to her, para 107

And whilst I can't remember the exact words, what I clearly remember was just feeling so very, very, very sad because that must have just been so hurtful a thing to hear. It just seemed very, very -- yes, sad.

I just felt very sad when I heard that comment, whatever it was.

Archive

archive.ph/u03uH

To be fair to JR, when I first read Maya's name, I did assume it might be pronounced with a sht. I'm familiar with German, and there's Stadt (town) pronounced shtat, and even Vorstadt pronounced forshtat (suburb, perhaps? I forget).
So "Forshtatter" isn't necessarily malicious in origin and might become a habit if you don't find out for a while how it's really pronounced. But if she's actually saying "Forshatter" without the T, there's no justification for it at all.

I realise that JR is being really annoying (my blood pressure was rising just reading TT, can't imagine what it was like to hear ) but what else can she do?

The supreme court judgement has tied both hands behind her, plus she can't throw either of her two clients under the bus to save the other so what's left? Filibustering and most marginalised and vulnerable™ bobbins.

Not defending the woman btw, I just don't see any kind of silk purse being made out of the sows ear that is Fife and Upton's joint case.

Sad Times

Not defending the woman btw, I just don't see any kind of silk purse being made out of the sows ear that is Fife and Upton's joint case.

JR is a silk. Got to work up a joke here!

All my codes have gone now, but I think at least one other person has codes to offer.

Michael Foran ended tonight by saying that all his live broadcasts are uploaded, but they are done by Substack and he has no control over or knowledge of when they will be available.

She's pronouncing it Forshatter. It's absolutely intentional.

The big-girl-pants make an appearance in NC's submission - with a foot note!

When asked in cross-examination why he had done that he told the Tribunal: “I go to work, and on the spur of the moment thought, you know, I will put my big girl pants on(9) and be brave”

(9) This was inappropriate in a formal setting, particularly from a man. It is one of a number of illustrations which BU provided in the course of his evidence of what would appear to be a pervasive impulse to challenge or violate boundaries.

Michael Foran made an interesting observation (among many!) about JR's incredibly tedious ramble through the structure of her submission and the facts of the case this afternoon.

He believes NC had blown such a huge hole in JR's legal arguments that she had to fill the time today and push those forward to tomorrow so she's got time overnight to patch something together.

I did wonder after the third or fourth time that JR mentioned a legal case and told the panel she'd be coming back to that...

Mumsnet got back to me and said it seemed that both of us had PMs blocked! I've no idea how that happened (and for so many of us, but I have been into my settings and toggled from yes to know on "Block private messages". I still can't PM you so presumably we both have to be unblocked.

Sorry it has been such a nuisance and I hope you managed to enjoy tonight's live stream!

If deliberations by the panel take place in October, when can we expect the judgement?

I've not heard the audio, but if she's clearly doing that, then yes, it must be. How spiteful.

Is anyone else struggling to open the TT substack tonight?
I can’t past the security captcha - it’s infuriating.😡
I want to catch up!