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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #51

1000 replies

nauticant · 01/09/2025 13:38

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:
drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 50: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5387893-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-50 7 August 2025 to 1 September 2025

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MyrtleLion · 01/09/2025 19:28

ItsCoolForCats · 01/09/2025 19:20

If deliberations by the panel take place in October, when can we expect the judgement?

ChatGPT says

  • The written judgment is usually issued within 4–8 weeks after deliberations, but it can take longer in complex, multi-day cases.
  • For a multi-week hearing with extensive submissions, it would be reasonable to expect the written ruling by late November to December, though if drafting or internal review takes longer, it could spill into early 2026.

In short: the panel’s October deliberations mean a ruling is likely before year-end, but a slip into the new year wouldn’t be unusual for a case of this scale.

Didshejustsaythatoutloud · 01/09/2025 19:30

😂😂

CriticalCondition · 01/09/2025 19:30

Another interesting observation from Michael Foran was that JR's basic timeline error (in referring to a legal case as setting the context for a statute when in fact it actually post dated it) is exactly the same one made in submissions made by the GLP on the EHRC's preliminary guidance. In which they redacted the name of counsel. Spooky, eh.

CarefulN0w · 01/09/2025 19:32

Spooky you say? I couldn’t possibly comment.

MyrtleLion · 01/09/2025 19:33

Boswell Today’s AI roundup of today’s submissions:

https://x.com/boswelltoday/status/1962507102393381368

September 1 | Morning Session | Peggie v NHS Fife & Dr Upton | Oral Submissions
🚨Words, Law, and the Reality of Sex
The tribunal opened with a quarrel over words, and as so often in this case, the words themselves carried more weight than mere labels. Naomi Cunningham, for Sandie Peggie, rose to insist that her client had the right to release her submissions in full. They were hers, she argued, protected by Article 10’s promise of freedom of expression. There was no prohibition against sharing them; no order had been made to stifle their publication. But Jane Russell KC, representing NHS Fife and Dr Upton, pressed for the erasure of Upton’s former name, describing it as gratuitous and harmful, invoking both dignity guidance and privacy law.

This was more than a question of courtesy. For Cunningham, the attempt to control how the tribunal might speak of Upton was emblematic of the wider battle: the steady erosion of reality under the pressure of etiquette. She dismissed Russell’s arguments as futile. Upton had no Gender Recognition Certificate; the name was already in the public domain. To pretend otherwise was to draw more attention to it, not less. When the judges returned after a short adjournment, they announced their decision. Upton’s former name would be redacted, not erased from history, but struck through in service of his Article 8 rights to privacy. Cunningham, taking instructions, agreed to make the edits swiftly.

It was a fitting prelude to her submissions, for the morning was to be spent on the clash between law and reality. Cunningham began from first principles. A man, however he presents, remains male. Single-sex spaces are lawful only if preserved for women alone. The Equality Act’s Schedule 3 was written to allow them, and their existence depends upon the exclusion of men. To admit males under the guise of gender identity was not to expand women’s rights, but to abolish them.

She reminded the tribunal of the Supreme Court’s decision in the For Women Scotland case, delivered earlier this year. A Gender Recognition Certificate, she pointed out, does not make a man into a woman for the purposes of the Equality Act. Even those with such certificates may lawfully be excluded from women’s spaces; without one, the point was unarguable. Dr Upton had never claimed to hold such a certificate. He could not.

The tribunal was led through a tour of authorities. Goodwin, Grant, Garçon & Nicot - all were confined to recognition of paperwork and status, none granting a right to enter women’s toilets or changing rooms. Croft v Royal Mail, once cited as a precedent for trans access, Cunningham dismissed as “a dead letter.” It was decided before the Gender Recognition Act, before the For Women Scotland ruling, and relied on the grotesque notion that women’s dignity might depend on a colleague’s surgical status. To place women’s safety on whether or not a man had been operated upon was, she told the panel, “truly unpalatable.”

Nor did Cook v Germany or similar European judgments assist the respondents. They spoke of health insurance and private life, but never of a right to undress among the opposite sex. No legal authority had yet declared that trans-identifying men must be admitted to female-only spaces.

Threaded through Cunningham’s argument was a deeper point about language itself. She warned that the tribunal must resist being swept into the linguistic trap laid by policy-makers and advocates. To call a man “she” was not a neutral courtesy, but a surrender of reality. “It is harder to hold on to the truth that transwomen are men if you are required to call them she,” she said. Across workplaces and institutions, the demand for linguistic conformity had become a tool for reshaping thought, until even long-serving nurses like Sandie Peggie could be cast as aggressors simply for speaking plainly.

By the time the morning adjourned, the shape of Peggie’s case stood clear. This was not a quarrel about etiquette but a defence of law itself. Women’s right to single-sex privacy rests on the recognition of sex as a fact, not a feeling. Admit men to women’s changing rooms, and they cease to be single-sex at all. Against the pressure of euphemism, against the fear of speaking truths now deemed impolite, Cunningham urged the tribunal to remember its duty: to decide on evidence and on law, not on fictions. And with that, the court broke for lunch - Cunningham’s submissions not yet finished, her arguments set to continue into the afternoon.

https://x.com/boswelltoday/status/1962507102393381368

ItsCoolForCats · 01/09/2025 19:33

MyrtleLion · 01/09/2025 19:28

ChatGPT says

  • The written judgment is usually issued within 4–8 weeks after deliberations, but it can take longer in complex, multi-day cases.
  • For a multi-week hearing with extensive submissions, it would be reasonable to expect the written ruling by late November to December, though if drafting or internal review takes longer, it could spill into early 2026.

In short: the panel’s October deliberations mean a ruling is likely before year-end, but a slip into the new year wouldn’t be unusual for a case of this scale.

Thank you

WFTCHTJ · 01/09/2025 19:39

I am very behind so have just discovered the secret of the

bigly words

ETA took a couple of goes, but

YES! It works!

Largesso · 01/09/2025 19:42

I have only read up to page 8 so apologies if someone has already made this point.

It seems to me that JRs guff this afternoon didn’t address the main accusations of the tribunal because that would be about process and procedure. She made no effort in her speaking note to use case law to justify why NHS behaved the way they did.

It seems the only accusation she was trying to refute was that of sexual harassment by seeking to argue that TW have a right to SSS by the gift of Self ID but women don’t have that right. It was extremely muddled by any argument.

Foran suggests she’s she might be going to revise her case law overnight to try and refute NC more effectively and that makes sense. She is so wholly of the ideology that she doesn’t have sufficiently legal an approach to imagine in advance NC making these points (altho NC has been making this clear throughout) and that in in my mind is a big asa failing. Instead she’s trying to reclaim witness credibility after the horse/ zebra has bolted.

BettyBooper · 01/09/2025 19:44

I reckon Naomi's line about the NHS being “in the grip of a delusion” is too delicious for journos to ignore. They all seem to be leading with it.

MyrtleLion · 01/09/2025 19:44

The text written above was from a different tweet than the link provided. The correct link to the text is here: https://x.com/boswelltoday/status/1962484372520525839

The correct text from the link above is this:

link is https://x.com/boswelltoday/status/1962507102393381368

Closing Argument: Cunningham on Sex, Privacy and the Delusion at NHS Fife Naomi Cunningham’s closing argument in Peggie v NHS Fife and Dr Upton was not delivered with rhetorical flourish but with the precision of a scalpel. Having spent days cross-examining witnesses, exposing gaps in evidence, and dissecting contradictions, she now gathered the strands into a single conclusion: this was not a case about Sandie Peggie’s “manner,” nor about patient safety, but about the right of women to state biological truth in their own spaces.

Cunningham began with law, grounding the tribunal firmly in the Equality Act and the For Women Scotland judgments. Single-sex exceptions, she reminded the panel, exist only if “sex” is given its biological meaning. Remove that anchor and the statute collapses into incoherence. The respondents’ claim - that Article 8 rights entitled Upton to strip alongside female colleagues - was “ambitious tending to unrealistic.” Women’s privacy rights, she said, would be more likely upheld in Strasbourg than Upton’s asserted right to undress in their company.

From there she addressed the late-breaking argument that Peggie had harassed Upton by her “manner.” The case of Higgs v Farmor’s School shows belief can be manifested in objectionable ways, but the respondents had failed to show this applied here. Peggie’s supposed aggression, Cunningham argued, was nothing more than a woman frightened and angry to find a man in a room where no man should be. The board’s witnesses admitted Upton was physically larger and socially higher in the hospital hierarchy. Peggie’s refusal to capitulate - telling him calmly he was a man and did not belong there - was not harassment but the protected manifestation of her belief.

That, Cunningham pressed, was the heart of the matter. If Peggie could not say “you are a man” without career-ending consequence, then her belief was stripped of protection altogether. The relentless disputes over language - Upton objecting to every word, Russell interrupting even in court - were not pedantic diversions but the mechanism by which belief was suppressed.

She turned then to credibility. The respondents had ransacked Peggie’s social media history, unearthing a single off-colour joke in seven years, to smear her as racist. They dredged up peripheral witnesses at the last minute. Meanwhile, central figures like Jamie Doyle or Angela Sheppard were never called. Kate Searle’s emails, Maggie Currer’s muddled testimony, and Isla Bumba’s extraordinary claim that she could not say with certainty whether she herself was a woman - all revealed a service in thrall to ideology. The board, Cunningham suggested, had no consistent account of what it was investigating: patient-safety concerns appeared, disappeared, and reappeared according to strategic convenience.

Her closing cadence was deliberately unsentimental. “Even if Sandie Peggie were a racist - she is not - even racist women should not be forced to undress in front of a man.” That line, spare and unsparing, captured her point. Rights are not contingent on virtue. A woman’s dignity is not forfeited because colleagues dislike her politics.

In her final words Cunningham called the respondents’ conduct “a heresy hunt.” NHS Fife, she said, was “in the grip of a delusion” - the belief that men can be women, and that this fiction must be enforced at all costs. Delusions can only be maintained through bullying, and Peggie’s suspension, the prolonged investigation, the character assassination, were the punishments for her refusal to join in the pretence.

The tribunal, she urged, should see the pattern for what it was: not a safeguarding exercise, not a proportionate response, but the institutional enforcement of an ideological orthodoxy against a nurse whose only transgression was to insist that sex is real.

Respondent's closing argument to follow later today/tomorrow

https://x.com/boswelltoday/status/1962484372520525839

WarrenTofficier · 01/09/2025 19:48

CohensDiamondTeeth · 01/09/2025 19:00

She's pronouncing it Forshatter. It's absolutely intentional.

At best it is toe curlingly pretentious (trying to incorrectly affect an accent to something you have wrongly assumed to have a different linguistics heritage) or horribly childish. At worst it is anti Semitic.

None of the above are a good look for a supposed intelligence professional (or even a moderately bright pre-teen).

DramaLlamacchiato · 01/09/2025 19:49

BiologicallyNebulous · 01/09/2025 19:26

Is anyone else struggling to open the TT substack tonight?
I can’t past the security captcha - it’s infuriating.😡
I want to catch up!

Same I keep getting error message

Easytoconfuse · 01/09/2025 19:49

I've lurked until now, but when I saw a trans reddit thread saying that Mumsnet and Sex Matters and the EHRC ought to be proscribed as terrorist groups then I had to come and stand with you.

Seriously, thanks to all here for educating and entertaining not only me but my DH, DD and DS. All of us are reading Terf Island and the Andrew Doyle books. Are you the reason why I couldn't get any tunnocks wafers with my food delivery on Saturday?

One question from DD & DS, both of whom are autistic. Has anyone considered the possibility that Dr Upton is on the autistic spectrum? I'm wondering after DS said 'I'm lousy at reading peoples feelings but I'm not that bad!

NebulousSupportPostcard · 01/09/2025 19:51

Boswell is boring now, I hope he soon gives up the ghost with these teeth-grinding AI summaries.

The Herald, meanwhile, has been so entertaining, and has just emailed out a further £1 for 3 months offer if anyone is interested. https://www.heraldscotland.com/subscribe/?utm_id=all%20access%20scotland

DrBlackbird · 01/09/2025 19:53

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 01/09/2025 18:51

Reading through NC's submission.

Reminded of the how much more important feelings are than recollection of actual events. Dr Pitt describing DU relaying the Christmas changing room events to her, para 107

And whilst I can't remember the exact words, what I clearly remember was just feeling so very, very, very sad because that must have just been so hurtful a thing to hear. It just seemed very, very -- yes, sad.

I just felt very sad when I heard that comment, whatever it was.

😂

Well laughing otherwise crying in despair at grown professionals acting in this childish and illogical manner.

BettyBooper · 01/09/2025 19:54

Easytoconfuse · 01/09/2025 19:49

I've lurked until now, but when I saw a trans reddit thread saying that Mumsnet and Sex Matters and the EHRC ought to be proscribed as terrorist groups then I had to come and stand with you.

Seriously, thanks to all here for educating and entertaining not only me but my DH, DD and DS. All of us are reading Terf Island and the Andrew Doyle books. Are you the reason why I couldn't get any tunnocks wafers with my food delivery on Saturday?

One question from DD & DS, both of whom are autistic. Has anyone considered the possibility that Dr Upton is on the autistic spectrum? I'm wondering after DS said 'I'm lousy at reading peoples feelings but I'm not that bad!

Mumsnet proscribed as a terrorist group??! 😂😂😂

Oh thank you so much for that giggle! These people are off the scale!

The TTT - Tunnocks Teacakes Terrorists 🤔

CohensDiamondTeeth · 01/09/2025 19:55

Easytoconfuse · 01/09/2025 19:49

I've lurked until now, but when I saw a trans reddit thread saying that Mumsnet and Sex Matters and the EHRC ought to be proscribed as terrorist groups then I had to come and stand with you.

Seriously, thanks to all here for educating and entertaining not only me but my DH, DD and DS. All of us are reading Terf Island and the Andrew Doyle books. Are you the reason why I couldn't get any tunnocks wafers with my food delivery on Saturday?

One question from DD & DS, both of whom are autistic. Has anyone considered the possibility that Dr Upton is on the autistic spectrum? I'm wondering after DS said 'I'm lousy at reading peoples feelings but I'm not that bad!

"One question from DD & DS, both of whom are autistic. Has anyone considered the possibility that Dr Upton is on the autistic spectrum? I'm wondering after DS said 'I'm lousy at reading peoples feelings but I'm not that bad!"

As far as I know, no he isn't.

IMO he doesn't come across as someone with Autism at all, he just comes across as a smugly arrogant, abusive, creepy bloke. I think he knows exactly what he's been doing and has been very much enjoying the control and power

hihelenhi · 01/09/2025 19:57

WarrenTofficier · 01/09/2025 19:48

At best it is toe curlingly pretentious (trying to incorrectly affect an accent to something you have wrongly assumed to have a different linguistics heritage) or horribly childish. At worst it is anti Semitic.

None of the above are a good look for a supposed intelligence professional (or even a moderately bright pre-teen).

There was also the "Miss Peggie/Piggy" thing back in the original sessions, making it obvious that's how Upton/Fife's team referred to SP, and yes, there were playground sniggers involved. Not "Nurse Peggie" (in the same way as "Dr Upton") or ("Sandie" in the same way as "Beth"). And SP is married in any case.

So yeah, it appears she is absolutely doing it deliberately. Deeply unprofessional & childish.

Easytoconfuse · 01/09/2025 19:58

CohensDiamondTeeth · 01/09/2025 19:55

"One question from DD & DS, both of whom are autistic. Has anyone considered the possibility that Dr Upton is on the autistic spectrum? I'm wondering after DS said 'I'm lousy at reading peoples feelings but I'm not that bad!"

As far as I know, no he isn't.

IMO he doesn't come across as someone with Autism at all, he just comes across as a smugly arrogant, abusive, creepy bloke. I think he knows exactly what he's been doing and has been very much enjoying the control and power

Edited

Thanks for that. He didn't strike me as it either but given the number of autistc people who feel that it would be nice to be unconditionally affirmed and applauded so believe themselves to be transgender, I did wonder. I put that to DS. He said he wasn't in the wrong body. He was in the wrong universe. I think he'd like to emigrate to the planet Vulcan.

Charabanc · 01/09/2025 19:58

CohensDiamondTeeth · 01/09/2025 19:55

"One question from DD & DS, both of whom are autistic. Has anyone considered the possibility that Dr Upton is on the autistic spectrum? I'm wondering after DS said 'I'm lousy at reading peoples feelings but I'm not that bad!"

As far as I know, no he isn't.

IMO he doesn't come across as someone with Autism at all, he just comes across as a smugly arrogant, abusive, creepy bloke. I think he knows exactly what he's been doing and has been very much enjoying the control and power

Edited

Indeed. Remember how he and his gang all strode into the first session of the tribunal.

That didn't last...

myplace · 01/09/2025 19:59

@Easytoconfuse women here have speculated briefly, iirc. ASD is over represented among trans identifying people.

However there’s a natural resistance from posters here to the idea that ASD might be relevant when someone is behaving badly.

And a reluctance to be armchair diagnosing anyone.

But your DS wouldn’t be alone in wondering. The thing is, it’s at the risk of suggesting ASD predisposes people to be selfish narcissistic arseholes, which none of us would want to say! Generally arseholes occur in both ND and NT varieties!

CohensDiamondTeeth · 01/09/2025 19:59

Charabanc · 01/09/2025 19:58

Indeed. Remember how he and his gang all strode into the first session of the tribunal.

That didn't last...

Yes the Wall of Sad sitting themselves deliberately behind NC in a clear attempt to intimidate / read over her shoulder - wee shites!

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 01/09/2025 20:03

CohensDiamondTeeth · 01/09/2025 19:59

Yes the Wall of Sad sitting themselves deliberately behind NC in a clear attempt to intimidate / read over her shoulder - wee shites!

Maybe, 'The acolytes of sad' or perhaps 'The sad acolytes'

Both sound like student bands from the 90s

Though I am quite liking the spiky Scottish punk tones of the 'wee shites'

CohensDiamondTeeth · 01/09/2025 20:10

Easytoconfuse · 01/09/2025 19:58

Thanks for that. He didn't strike me as it either but given the number of autistc people who feel that it would be nice to be unconditionally affirmed and applauded so believe themselves to be transgender, I did wonder. I put that to DS. He said he wasn't in the wrong body. He was in the wrong universe. I think he'd like to emigrate to the planet Vulcan.

Live Long And Prosper Star Trek GIF

Planet Vulcan probably doesn't have any time for this sort of illogical nonsense, I want to go there too 😂Live long and prosper

Again IMO he's a man with a fetish.

He's not just wanting to be affirmed without question.

He seemed to me to be actively searching for women to keep notes on, if they even looked at him sideways and didn't immediately fawn all over him, including that patient suffering with dementia correctly sexing him.

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