NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #26

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access. However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was doubtful whether pubilc access for remote viewing would be reinstated but recent developments (as of mid May) suggest that this might actually become available again.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25

Isn't it noticeable that a lot of the TRA discourse is becoming a mirror image of ours - messages of support and kindness...donations.... echo-chamber... cognitive dissonance...obsessed with toilets... dignity...safe spaces..

It's like everything we say in our critiques of the trans position is being appropriated and then turned back against us - the recent use of 'cognitive dissonance' by TRAs is a great example.

There's something very childish about it - you know that irritating thing that children sometimes do when they mirror everything you do, and keep repeating what you say
'Please stop repeating everything I say, it's really annoying!'
'Please stop repeating everything I say, it's really annoying!'
'Just stop it!'
'Just stop it!'
and so on till they get bored.

Or the overtired, irrational right back at you:
'Go and wash your face, you've got chocolate all over it'
'No you go and wash your face, you've got chocolate all over it!'

'Haven't trans activists ever noticed the cognitive dissonance...?'
'Haven't you GC transphobes ever noticed your cognitive dissonance...'
🙄

There are two separate issues being confused here.

Delaying the process, failing to provide full disclosure, etc., will not result in aggravated damages. It may result in costs being awarded to the other side even if you win. That is the penalty - not aggravated damages.

Aggravated damages are awarded where the employee has been treated exceptionally badly or where the employer's response to the claim was especially unpleasant or aggressive. Allison Bailey was awarded £2k aggravated damages due to the way Garden Court Chambers treated her - telling her that she had brought the death threats on herself by her tweets and hostility towards her from members of chambers.

Lizzie Pitt (the bizarre trans dog case) was awarded £55k compensation and £8k costs. The tribunal clearly stated that they were ignoring the fact that she was crowdfunded and were awarding costs anyway.

They’ve finally cottoned onto the fact that GC arguments are better composed, evidenced and more compelling than TRA tantrumming and threats. They can mimic and appropriate our style and presentation but they still fall flat on logic, evidence and reality. Reminds me of something else. 🤔

There's an inadvertently very funny Reddit thread called, plaintively, something like "Why are the TERFs so much better organised than we are?"

Obviously it doesn't occur to any of the blue-haired wunderkinder that just maybe women have been doing the bulk of domestic and familial organisation for literally millennia, and also putting money aside quietly to protect themselves and other women.

@prh47bridge costs dont deal with the stress and emotional harm from deliberate delays. Then there is the question of the way "patient safety" claims were dealt with, without seriously investigating the evidence and the disciplinary hearing they wanted to hold during the tribunal case. I suppose it depends on how you think employees should be treated whether you regard that as hostility and sufficient for aggravated damages or just incompetence or misconduct by an employer and normal damages.

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/dr-beth-upton-pocket-half-35308112

Newspapers scouring mumsnet for stories again? They obviously didn't pick it up on Reddit 2 days ago.

Pretty mean to poor Dr Upton, but frankly I couldn't care less.

It's completely factual. And it wouldn't be able to be reported on if he hadn't said it himself.

Might not be kind, but it's not unfair.

No, costs don't deal with the stress. etc., from deliberated delays, but I'm afraid that is all the courts can award. The patient safety claims could give rise to aggravated damages.

David Walker, their politics reporter, has been very fair in all his reporting on this case. I've been impressed by his clarity in every article.

Turning everything into slogans requires minimal brain activity. Critical thinking and awareness of one's own cognitive biases can be painful.

It's like everything we say in our critiques of the trans position is being appropriated and then turned back against us - the recent use of 'cognitive dissonance' by TRAs is a great example.

They have notably appropriated the term ideology for the sex realist position.

Idiots.

Poor old DrBU...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14762627/Trans-doctor-receives-counselling-incredible-distress-NHS-gender-tribunal.html

I don't think I have enough eye rolls for this hyperbole.

Aww diddums!

10 out of 10 for the Councillor being able to keep a straight face. Bet they are laughing all the way to the bank. Idiot!

All the education he's had and he needs councilling because he's not a woman!

Actually maybe he's shitting his pants at the thought of his phone being handed over....i can imagine he'll need councilling for that!

Particularly cruel choice of photo.

And I am here for it😁

No, he/hims were injured in the drafting of that DM piece. Used by Susan Smith of FWS, though.

Do you mean the photo that didn't emphasise the high forehead, the huge hands or the narrow hips?

The SDE had a lot of complaints about clarity regarding sex and gender on some early articles on the Peggie case. After that they have been exceptionally clear - I think it really pi$$ed them off. Another own goal by the TRAs I think

Wow - surely a sign of public interest in this case that a note on a crowdfunder makes the national press... roll on July

Scottish Daily Express refers to Dr Upton as she in the headline but then-

“The transgender medic caught up in a row over single-sex spaces in Fife confirmed that he and his wife were pocketing half of the £5,000 raised on his behalf. ”

This is the way.

Well he does need counselling to accept the man he is. Fingers crossed he opens up about the root of his dysphoria, accepts the truth, apologies to Peggie and women everywhere and uses the right facilities from now on.
It is possible as others have successfully seen the truth. There is, after all, a reason behind his dysphoria that leads him to think he is what he isn't.

Oh dear! My heart bleeds. He obviously thought he could get away with using the women's changing rooms, probably knowing how captured the NHS was, but then he met his match. And now he's upset......

His previous counsellor just affirmed his victimhood, she wrote a statement for the tribunal about the terrible effects of the micro aggressions he'd been subjected to by the nasty transphobe nurse. It's in the court docs if you want to read it. All the counselling organisations are as captured as the unions. So unless he seeks out a neutral counsellor (hardy likely) that won't happen.

And I'd be surprised if he's got any dysphoria. I don't think he's from that group of transpeople, iykwim.

He's not the transsiah! He's a very biological boy.

Is it possible to access the court documents? How?